Could God have Created a Different Universe?

TedT

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1. Does this mean a Hindu, Buddhist, wrong Christian beliefs, or other, are then being sent to hell by YHWH, even though they thrive to follow the golden rule?
Assuming thrive is a typo for strive, most Christian theology suggests that good works, ie achieving a full expression of the golden rule in your life, is NOT adequate for redemption from sin without faith in Christ's death and resurrection.

The passport to heaven is faith, not the works of a sinner no matter how good they may seem to be on earth because the sinner was fundamentally changed in his heart to be corrupt by his first choice to sin and good works can only be a gloss over that corruption when what is needed is a rebirth of the person out of sin by faith in Christ.

2. And if so, and if any of these folks were your close friends and/or family, you would not be sad or miss them when you are in Heaven, and you know they are burning in hell eternally?
Answered already. In their sinfulness they were subconsciously, at best, trying to keep me in my sins to keep the postponement of the judgement day continuing and at worst, trying to take me to hell with them...

I'll see how I feel about them once i get there.

3. You can avoid sin now, since you already know sin is against God's nature. Thus, how are you going to do any better, when in Heaven? Seems as though God would need to change you, before you enter Heaven. And if He needs to change you, just allow everyone into Heaven; since He must change anyone anyways?
As I have said, (though it bears repeating), those damned chose by their free will to repudiate YHWH as their GOD for being a liar and a false god, rejecting HIS definition of good and evil. They also repudiated the Son as the only source of salvation from evil thus denying GOD any interference with this free will, ie, sacrosanct decision.

Their repudiation of HIM put themselves outside of HIS grace and mercy for ever which they chose because they were so certain that HE was a charlatan, a fake with no power to reward good nor to punish evil but his religion was just trying to manipulate a false worship to sooth feelings of inadequacy... Alas for them, HE then proved HIS Deity and power by the creation of the physical universe before their eyes.

The elect who chose to rebel against HIM first made sure that they were safe from hell by accepting HIM as GOD until proven wrong, and only then rebelling against HIS first command of judgement against the those condemned already. The reprobate scorned these elect for this ploy to be safe from hell as an inadequate response against such absolute evil as the false claim to be our GOD that would taint them forever when YHWH was exposed as a liar and, as the first liar, the most evil person in creation.

To accept HIM until proven wrong is a vastly different stance from rejecting HIM until proof they are wrong, eh? One is workable for GOD who can bring the elect sinner back to this first niggle of faith and the other is unworkable because their free will rejection of HIM was sacrosanct and without HIM they are eternally evil, unable to save themselves.
 
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TedT

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It really doesn’t matter much, though. Neither you nor Paul have access to ANY of my thought content, conscious or subconscious.

So which is it - is your interpretation of this Bible passage wrong, or is the Bible itself wrong?
I believe that your understanding that your subconscious motivation cannot be known by GOD is wrong...
 
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cvanwey

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Assuming thrive is a typo for strive, most Christian theology suggests that good works, ie achieving a full expression of the golden rule in your life, is NOT adequate for redemption from sin without faith in Christ's death and resurrection.

The passport to heaven is faith, not the works of a sinner no matter how good they may seem to be on earth because the sinner was fundamentally changed in his heart to be corrupt by his first choice to sin and good works can only be a gloss over that corruption when what is needed is a rebirth of the person out of sin by faith in Christ.

Good catch. Yes, typo. I meant "strive" :)

Curiously, you state "
most Christian theology"...? I'm not asking what is the consensus view of Christians... I'm asking if Hindus, Buddhists, and all others, who believe in opposing god(s), are being sent to hell ---- a place of eternal burning?

You state the "passport to heaven is faith". Is this THE answer? Without belief/trust/faith in Jesus, you have no chance any other way? If so, HOW MUCH "faith" is required?

Answered already. In their sinfulness they were subconsciously, at best, trying to keep me in my sins to keep the postponement of the judgement day continuing and at worst, trying to take me to hell with them...

I'll see how I feel about them once i get there.

Pardon me if my questions seem redundant. I'm looking for more clarification. I'm wanting to drill down your asserted truth.

Sounds like you are saying that if your spouse, family, and/or good friend(s) were sent to hell, this was because they were deliberately in defiance of YHWH? Thus, if they are in hell, you would not mourn for them at all, because God will have revealed the truth of their character to you, in a way you would then know they are justly where the belong --- burning in agony for eternity?


And I can already answer how would feel, preemptively.... You would feel nothing but complete happiness and content. Otherwise, you would not be in Heaven; as Heaven is the perfect place, with no sadness, right?


As I have said, (though it bears repeating), those damned chose by their free will to repudiate YHWH as their GOD for being a liar and a false god, rejecting HIS definition of good and evil. They also repudiated the Son as the only source of salvation from evil thus denying GOD any interference with this free will, ie, sacrosanct decision.

Their repudiation of HIM put themselves outside of HIS grace and mercy for ever which they chose because they were so certain that HE was a charlatan, a fake with no power to reward good nor to punish evil but his religion was just trying to manipulate a false worship to sooth feelings of inadequacy... Alas for them, HE then proved HIS Deity and power by the creation of the physical universe before their eyes.

The elect who chose to rebel against HIM first made sure that they were safe from hell by accepting HIM as GOD until proven wrong, and only then rebelling against HIS first command of judgement against the those condemned already. The reprobate scorned these elect for this ploy to be safe from hell as an inadequate response against such absolute evil as the false claim to be our GOD that would taint them forever when YHWH was exposed as a liar and, as the first liar, the most evil person in creation.

To accept HIM until proven wrong is a vastly different stance from rejecting HIM until proof they are wrong, eh? One is workable for GOD who can bring the elect sinner back to this first niggle of faith and the other is unworkable because their free will rejection of HIM was sacrosanct and without HIM they are eternally evil, unable to save themselves.

Sounds like you are declaring there exists no such thing as a true atheist, agnostic, skeptic. Is this what you are asserting -- "That deep down, we all know YHWH exists?"

Further, I do not see anywhere in which you responded to what I asked?

You already know what God deems 'sin'. However, you will continue to sin anyways, until you die. When you die, you will presumably go to Heaven. Heaven is a place without sin. You stated prior, that you know God's Character - ("sin" is the antithesis of His Character). And yet, you still sin.

A: How exactly will you not sin in Heaven, without God CHANGING you?
B: It would seem you cannot accomplish this on your own. If God needs to CHANGE you, so you will no longer sin, then God can just let everyone in, as He has to CHANGE everyone, right?.?.?.?.?
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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I believe that your understanding that your subconscious motivation cannot be known by GOD is wrong...

Even if I grant that Yahweh exists, and that he possesses magic mind-reading powers, neither you nor Paul are Yahweh. So, that does nothing to help your case.

Does this passage refer to subconscious activity? Then it contradicts the claim that I am "without excuse", and the Bible is wrong.

Does it refer to conscious activity? Then it contradicts the content of my own thoughts, which only I have access to, and the Bible is wrong.

Take your pick.
 
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TedT

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Without belief/trust/faith in Jesus, you have no chance any other way? If so, HOW MUCH "faith" is required?
I cannot measure faith...I do not know the answer but I do know it is very very small. Any truth to your faith no matter how small will be respected or YHWH is not who HE says HE is...

Sounds like you are declaring there exists no such thing as a true atheist, agnostic, skeptic. Is this what you are asserting -- "That deep down, we all know YHWH exists?"
I do believe deep down everyone knows the truth but on our surface level there are of course many true atheists, agnostics and skeptics.

A: How exactly will you not sin in Heaven, without God CHANGING you?
B: It would seem you cannot accomplish this on your own. If God needs to CHANGE you, so you will no longer sin, then God can just let everyone in, as He has to CHANGE everyone, right?.?.?.?.?

GOD will change me and has been in the process for the last 74+ years.

If you are a sinner as proven by being human, then yes, you cannot get into heaven without being changed, reborn a butterfly etc. and no, HE cannot willy nilly change just everyone because (again) some chose to disallow HIM from ever interfering with their choice to be HIS eternal enemy and their free will choice must be sacrosanct or no one has a truly free will.
 
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TedT

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Does this passage refer to subconscious activity? Then it contradicts the claim that I am "without excuse", and the Bible is wrong.
Since you (generically, not specifically) opened yourself up to this subversion of your subconscious by your consciousness, you are indeed culpable and without the excuse ignorance. People chose to rebuke YHWH as GOD. Even in light of HIS warnings of the consequences of so doing, they went ahead and rebuked HIM as a liar and a false god without proof which separated them from HIS goodness for eternity. They have no excuse for this choice as no one had proof of HIS deity and yet most people chose to put their faith in HIM.

Then they saw the proof of HIS deity which many of the elect thought would bring them around to accepting HIS offer of redemption etc but even though they knew they were condemned for rejecting HIM without any excuse to offer, they could not repent nor accept Christ whom they had already repudiated without proof as a liar, as their saviour.

Before proof of HIS being a false deity was given, they were without excuse for rebuking HIM as false. Afer proof was given for HIS deity, they are again without the excuse of ignorance in their continued rejection of HIM.

What is not written here but is hinted at elsewhere: this continued railing against the truth of YHWH's deity after HE gave us the proof is allowed for the purpose of bringing the sinful elect into accord with the absolute need for the banishment of the reprobate to the outer darkness because even such proof as seeing the Creation of the physical universe is not enough to end their addiction to evil.

So strong are the delusions caused by sinfulness that we do not know of our own sinfulness until HE opens our eyes to it and we are ashamed. Iow, every sinful decision seems righteous and can be explained as righteous even though sinful...
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I do believe deep down everyone knows the truth but on our surface level there are of course many true atheists, agnostics and skeptics.
This is an impossibility. You don’t know what others believe. No one can believe and disbelieve at the same time. I used to believe now I don’t. What if I told you that deep down you believe Allah is the true god?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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GOD will change me and has been in the process for the last 74+ years.

If you are a sinner as proven by being human, then yes, you cannot get into heaven without being changed, reborn a butterfly etc. and no, HE cannot willy nilly change just everyone because (again) some chose to disallow HIM from ever interfering with their choice to be HIS eternal enemy and their free will choice must be sacrosanct or no one has a truly free will.
I don’t need god to magically change me. I need god to show me the convincing evidence he is real and what the true path to salvation is. Then I will be able to make an informed decision on the subject. That in no way violates my free will. I have been asking for years now.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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People chose to rebuke YHWH as GOD

I made no such “choice”. Belief isn’t a choice at all. One is either convinced of something, or one is not. I remain thoroughly unconvinced of the existence of all gods, including Yahweh.

Sorry, but your holy book is utterly incoherent, and can’t stand up to basic scrutiny. I suggest you find either a new apologetic, or a new holy book.
 
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cvanwey

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I cannot measure faith...I do not know the answer but I do know it is very very small. Any truth to your faith no matter how small will be respected or YHWH is not who HE says HE is...

This assertion looks to contradict Biblical Verse... when Jesus saidlove the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment', was this merely a suggestion, and not a rule?

If my faith is 'very very small', I doubt I could reach this level of love for Jesus, could I? Wouldn't it be logical to state that the greater your "faith/trust/hope", the more you will love Him?


I do believe deep down everyone knows the truth but on our surface level there are of course many true atheists, agnostics and skeptics.

So Romans 1 is ultimately calling every proclaimed atheist, agnostic, and skeptic a liar?

If you are a sinner as proven by being human, then yes, you cannot get into heaven without being changed, reborn a butterfly etc.

Great, so if you must be changed, He can let everyone in. Why? You will always sin, prior to Heaven, no matter how hard you try not to. Just like everyone else. Why? Because, like you said "If you are a sinner as proven by being human, then yes, you cannot get into heaven without being changed, reborn a butterfly etc."

and no, HE cannot willy nilly change just everyone because (again) some chose to disallow HIM from ever interfering with their choice to be HIS eternal enemy and their free will choice must be sacrosanct or no one has a truly free will.

Your 'free will' has to be modified to enter Heaven. Otherwise, you would still sin in Heaven, just like your free will allows you to sin here on earth. But you apparently cannot sin in Heaven. You, yourself, stated that you will be changed. Which means you are no longer you. You are now a 'butterfly' or etc.... So just let everyone in. :)

You also avoided an important point/question. I'll repeat:

Sounds like you are saying that if your spouse, family, and/or good friend(s) were sent to hell, this was because they were deliberately in defiance of YHWH? Thus, if they are in hell, you would not mourn for them at all, because God will have revealed the truth of their character to you, in a way you would then know they are justly where they belong --- burning in agony for eternity?
 
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TedT

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I don’t need god to magically change me. I need god to show me the convincing evidence he is real and what the true path to salvation is.

Yet Romans 1:18-20 plus says the proof has indeed already happened and it did no good, alas alack.

As for the true path to salvation, how can you say you don't know hw to be saved when whole cultures are based upon Christ's sacrifice for us?

Just google "how can I be saved" and you'll be ok.
 
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TedT

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Then I will be able to make an informed decision on the subject. That in no way violates my free will. I have been asking for years now.

If no answer meets this criteria then I suggest it is wrongly judged by your criteria of "in no way does it violate my free will" since all regeneration is by the gift of grace from GOD AGAINST our sinful, NOT our FREE, human will.

Only sinners are born on earth, ie, all humans are sinners.
Sinners are enslaved to the addictive power of evil and have lost their free will until they are reborn in the Spirit.

Rejecting the truth of these doctrines will interfere sadly with any desire to be saved, making your seeking salvation to be moot.
 
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TedT

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I made no such “choice”. Belief isn’t a choice at all. One is either convinced of something, or one is not. I remain thoroughly unconvinced of the existence of all gods, including Yahweh.
That you do not remember making such a choice is right up there with your lack of memory of most of the details of your life, especially your first 3 years. Because you don't remember, do we deny the witness of those who do know about those details?

Belief isn’t a choice at all. One is either convinced of something, or one is not. I remain thoroughly unconvinced of the existence of all gods, including Yahweh.
Your definition of belief is worldly and secular and NOT what Christians mean when they use it. It is in fact a problem that English insists on translating faith AS belief as if it refers to something proven when all it is is a UNPROVEN HOPE.

Faith does not need conviction since hope is free wheeling but it is true that the more you hope the more you believe your hope will be fulfilled, the more your hope becomes conviction.

Sorry, but your holy book is utterly incoherent, and can’t stand up to basic scrutiny. I suggest you find either a new apologetic, or a new holy book.
The Book is quite coherent and stands up well to scrutiny when not viewed through the muddy glasses of sinfulness.

The theology of sinfulness destroying our ability to understand spiritual things is well established...you must find another reason for me to think about accepting your protestation.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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The Book is quite coherent and stands up well to scrutiny

Clearly not, since you’re just making stuff up wholesale at this point to try and cover the gaps. If it could stand on its own merits, you wouldn’t have to do that.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Had to be possible does not necessarily mean that it had to be experienced.

Huh?

Our free will was an absolute necessity to be able to fulfill the purpose for our creation ie to have loving marriage with GOD.

Is this your reasoning, or from Scripture?

A free will could not be constrained from not choosing the option GOD did not want us to choose, that is, to reject HIM and HIS purpose for us and descend into evil. Evil had to be an option for our free will to actually be free.

Why did it have to be actually free?

But the option to choose to be in total accord with HIM and HIS purposes was available to everyone from the start, not just the holy elect angels who chose it, so it is a fact that everyone might have chosen to be holy and there would have been no fall, no sin and no hell.

Yet you can't prove that they 'might have'.

GOD had no need for sin to fulfill HIS purposes of a heavenly marriage with us - to think HE did need sin is a blasphemy - but HE did need to make it an available option for our free will to be really free.

Again, remind why our free will needed to be really free?

We each created evil in ourselves and changed our intellectual understanding of it to the full experiencing of it by eating of the tree of the of the knowledge good and evil by our free will.
You had a bite too? I thought that was Adam and Eve, and we inherited the sinful nature from them.
 
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Mark Quayle

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If this was referring to subconscious activity, rather than conscious, deliberate activity, that would be an excuse.

Bad reasoning. Being unconscious of the corruption within you does not yield lack of corruption.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Yet Romans 1:18-20 plus says the proof has indeed already happened and it did no good, alas alack.
no matter what you believe I know for a fact that those verses are not true.

As for the true path to salvation, how can you say you don't know hw to be saved when whole cultures are based upon Christ's sacrifice for us?

Just google "how can I be saved" and you'll be ok.
I will assume you are just naive instead of being dishonest. There are literally millions of pages written between Christians over the last 2000 years arguing about this topic. You and Mark are arguing over it right now. Look at the christian only pages here. Endless arguments on the subject.

when I lost my faith I had many Christians tell me that I was never saved in the first place due to various reasons. They conflicted and all said they were based on the Bible. So a quick google will only lead to confusion.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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Bad reasoning. Being unconscious of the corruption within you does not yield lack of corruption.

I didn’t say anything about a “lack”. I said if it’s unconscious activity, then that’s an excuse, which would be an internal contradiction with Romans 1.

In any case, neither you nor Paul are in any position to glean the contents of my thoughts, conscious or subconscious.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I didn’t say anything about a “lack”. I said if it’s unconscious activity, then that’s an excuse, which would be an internal contradiction with Romans 1.

In any case, neither you nor Paul are in any position to glean the contents of my thoughts, conscious or subconscious.

I don't need to glean the contents of your thoughts, conscious or subconscious, and Paul didn't either. But God is in that position to do so —in fact, more thoroughly and accurately than you are. And HE said in Romans 1 that you are without excuse.

Logically, not being conscious of your rebellious intent does not give you any excuse. For example, the fact a person doesn't realize their selfishness causes them to squelch the joy and confidence of their child doesn't mean they are not to blame for doing so.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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I don't need to glean the contents of your thoughts, conscious or subconscious, and Paul didn't either. But God is in that position to do so

Even if I grant Yahweh's existence, and that he possesses magic mind-reading powers, you have no means of gleaning what Yahweh has gleaned from my mind. Neither does Paul.

And if Yahweh can read my thoughts, he knows exactly the same thing that I know, which is that I don't believe he exists.

Logically, not being conscious of your rebellious intent does not give you any excuse. For example, the fact a person doesn't realize their selfishness causes them to squelch the joy and confidence of their child doesn't mean they are not to blame for doing so.

Nope. Intent is irrelevant. Content is what's relevant. The assertion is that the content of my thoughts contain the belief that Yahweh exists. They do not.

Any atheist can prove this to themselves, using the same intrapersonal means.

Paul was extremely unwise to predicate an assertion on information he had no access to. I suggest you refrain from doing the same.
 
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