Could God have Created a Different Universe?

[TedT]

The point I was trying to make is how can you have free will if God could have created any other universe but chose to create this one knowing everything that would happen in it?

??? Our free will means He does NOT create the results of our free will decisions. They arise solely from our own desires and hopes without any coercion by any means by HIM.

The nature of the universe doesn't fix our fates into some narrow slot, only our lives as sinners who have no free will.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Are human prisons defective because they do not run by the same rules and morés of more polite society? Not a bit, and neither is there anything defective about the use of Earth as the prison when the Satanic horde was flung and the few sinful elect with them.

This prison called Earth is a place of judgement and the proof of evil thru death and suffering. The Satanic are partially judged for their crimes here in their lives with NO rehabilitative intent and the sinful elect suffer disciplinary punishments for their sins with a guaranteed rehabilitative effect to bring them to holiness.

All defect is found in the Earthly citizens, not in how the environment perfectly gives these corrupt citizens what they need for the redemption of the sinful elect, ie, the awareness of their own evil and that the evil of the Satanic is eternal.

This is the kind of thing I refer to as an example of what religion does to some people. Your view that most people are satanic and there are a few sinful elect, which I assume you think you are part of, is a bad way to view the world. It leads to division and hatred. ImCo of course.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

??? Our free will means He does NOT create the results of our free will decisions. They arise solely from our own desires and hopes without any coercion by any means by HIM.

The nature of the universe doesn't fix our fates into some narrow slot, only our lives as sinners who have no free will.

So what are you saying? Do you think we have free will or not?

 

[TedT]

So what are you saying? Do you think we have free will or not?

BOTH!

YES - ImCo, we were created with a free will.

When we sinned we lost that free will to an enslaving addiction to evil and so our lives as sinners on earth are not driven by our free will but predetermined by GOD in accord with our free will choices before we sinned.

When we are reborn in Christ here on earth we regain our ability to make free will decisions but our psyches are twisted by our sinful experiences and we must be trained in righteousness to always use our regained free will to choose only righteousness.

 

[ChetSinger]

I think this is a useful definition:

The power of making choices that are neither determined by natural causality nor predestined by fate or divine will.

All that I have read and studied on this topic makes me lean toward that we do not have free will. However, I don't know how anyone could demonstrate that we do or do not have free will.

OK. I disagree. I think one of God's attributes is free will and that he's shared that attribute with us. I don't think he wanted humans to be deterministic.

 

[ChetSinger]

...Since we are conceived here as sinners, that is, with no free will, I suggest it is probable we were created before our election or the condemnation of the Satanic, before the creation of the physical universe and that we were part of the crowd (called ALL the sons of GOD) who saw the glory of the creation of the physical universe and sang our hearts out in praise of HIM: Job 38:7, which proof is talked about extensively in Rom 1, especially its effect upon the satanic.

I like what you said but I'll disagree with that interpretation of Job. From what I've read I the term "bene Elohim" (sons of God) refer to members of the angelic host.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

BOTH!

YES - ImCo, we were created with a free will.

When we sinned we lost that free will to an enslaving addiction to evil and so our lives as sinners on earth are not driven by our free will but predetermined by GOD in accord with our free will choices before we sinned.

When we are reborn in Christ here on earth we regain our ability to make free will decisions but our psyches are twisted by our sinful experiences and we must be trained in righteousness to always use our regained free will to choose only righteousness.

Do you believe God could have created a different universe but chose to create the one we have?

And no, I am not addicted to evil.

 

[TedT]

This is the kind of thing I refer to as an example of what religion does to some people. Your view that most people are satanic and there are a few sinful elect, which I assume you think you are part of, is a bad way to view the world. It leads to division and hatred. ImCo of course.

I do hope, ie have faith without proof, that I am elect ...are you suggesting there is something wrong with that? What do you put your faith in?

The reason I believe the elect good seed are vastly outnumbered by the Satanic weeds is from such verses as Matt 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.… while considering that all the elect and only the elect will indeed enter it.

Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Does not repetition suggest this is an important point?

As for division and hatred, when does the call for us to come away from the world also call us to thate them???
Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good...
If someone hates it is not from GOD's call to be separate, ie divided from them.

2 Corinthians 6:17 Therefore, “Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”

Jeremiah 15:17
I never sat with the band of revelers, nor did I celebrate with them. Because Your hand was on me, I sat alone, for You have filled me with indignation.

Revelation 18:4
Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, My people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues.

This is the call to be separate in our hearts from the worldly, the Satanic, not to hate them. Something is amiss if the call to come out is ignored from a false understanding it is a call to hate.

When my freemason friend asked, "If you think we are all satanic whey do you treat us so friendly and helpful?" I told him that my calling as a Christian is to love sinners, even those who persecute me and so I treat them, as best I can, with love and respect while knowing the day of judgement is coming.

Yes, I have been divided from the secular world, not by theology but by the call of GOD.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

OK. I disagree. I think one of God's attributes is free will and that he's shared that attribute with us. I don't think he wanted humans to be deterministic.

But if God could have created any universe He wanted to and freely chose to create this one knowing everything that would happen ahead of time, then you don't have free will.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I do hope, ie have faith without proof, that I am elect ...are you suggesting there is something wrong with that? What do you put your faith in?

I think using faith to determine truth is no way to tell if what you believe to be true is actually true.

Just like everyone else I believe things to be true when I am convinced they are true. What I try to do is make sure that what convinces me is good reasons/evidence.

The reason I believe the elect good seed are vastly outnumbered by the Satanic weeds is from such verses as Matt 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.… while considering that all the elect and only the elect will indeed enter it.

Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Does not repetition suggest this is an important point?

As for division and hatred, when does the call for us to come away from the world also call us to thate them???
Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good...
If someone hates it is not from GOD's call to be separate, ie divided from them.

2 Corinthians 6:17 Therefore, “Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”

Jeremiah 15:17
I never sat with the band of revelers, nor did I celebrate with them. Because Your hand was on me, I sat alone, for You have filled me with indignation.

Revelation 18:4
Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, My people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues.

This is the call to be separate in our hearts from the worldly, the Satanic, not to hate them. Something is amiss if the call to come out is ignored from a false understanding it is a call to hate.

When my freemason friend asked, "If you think we are all satanic whey do you treat us so friendly and helpful?" I told him that my calling as a Christian is to love sinners, even those who persecute me and so I treat them, as best I can, with love and respect while knowing the day of judgement is coming.

Yes, I have been divided from the secular world, not by theology but by the call of GOD.

What convince you this is true?

 

[ChetSinger]

But if God could have created any universe He wanted to and freely chose to create this one knowing everything that would happen ahead of time, then you don't have free will.

I think you've described a God who is a prisoner of his own nature: he can't create anything that can surprise himself. He can't create randomness. Is such a God omnipotent?

 

[Petros2015]

Did He Create...? Or is He CreaTING?
One could argue that God creates a different universe with every passing second...

'knowing everything that would happen in it'

Everything that has happened in it has been allowed...

But if you want a different universe, it's easy to get to one -
As soon as I drink a can of Coke, you now live in a Universe where that can of Coke is *gone*, whether you are an inmate in a prison or the dali llama on a mountain or an alien twiddling his three thumbs on Alpha Centauri, or someone hot and sweaty from a long day in the fields wondering where his can of Coke went.

It's not fundamentally different, but it is different.

Time is opportunity. And I would argue that Creation is ongoing.

 

[Petros2015]

or someone hot and sweaty from a long day in the fields wondering where his can of Coke went. It's not fundamentally different, but it is different.

If I gave the can of Coke to the hot and sweaty someone coming in from a long day in the fields THEY might find it a fundamentally different universe in that moment.

I think maybe the root here is 'God knows what would be done when He Created, therefore we are neither free nor accountable'.

The counterpoint is 'God knows what He is doING as He Creates - and actually, we are both'

What sort of fundamentally different universe are we looking for anyway?
A Universe with more Love in it?
Pretty easy to start one, whenever we want.
In fact, I think we are encouraged to.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing themselves..." ~Tolstoy

 

[TedT]

I think using faith to determine truth is no way to tell if what you believe to be true is actually true.

Just like everyone else I believe things to be true when I am convinced they are true. What I try to do is make sure that what convinces me is good reasons/evidence.

I do not use faith to determine the truth, only what I hope to be true though a mature faith does have a certainty of truth about it alright.

This seems to state that you need proof, which is the opposite of faith. Alas we are saved by faith, not proof.

 

[TedT]

What convince you this is true?

The Holy Spirit...

 

[TedT]

This is the kind of thing I refer to as an example of what religion does to some people. Your view that most people are satanic and there are a few sinful elect, which I assume you think you are part of, is a bad way to view the world. It leads to division and hatred. ImCo of course.

Ignore the thology and castigate me for being divisive and hating...riiiiight. The ad hominem is strong in this one...

 

[cvanwey]

They are alive right now.

But you are thinking of only this temporary body I know.

For that, just like any child that dies, you will die.

(Or do you feel in your heart that you won't?, or think you wont?)

Since this mortal body's life is only a short temporary life, whether 1 year or 100 -- both quite short times -- the real question is who will live a significant amount of time instead, something that might be enough to matter (e.g. 100,000 years or 100 million, or more)

The innocent children that passed on will have eternal life. So, they will live and live and live and live.

Will you, or me?

We have to repent with faith to be given that.

I'm replying to your comment "all things work for their good?"

If a child suffers and then dies, prior to the age of enlightenment, why would the prior suffering be necessary? The child is not yet able to distinguish between 'right' and 'wrong', "love' or 'hate', etc, ....and then perishes.

Furthermore, if this child only ascends to heaven, for eternity, how would the child know it is eternal bliss, if no bad exists in heaven, and this child never achieved moral maturity?

Additionally, if perishing children get a free ticket to heaven, where as you and I may instead need to play the wait-and-see-game, for God's judgement; why not just dispatch all young children. This seems most altruistic, if the goal is to guarantee human salvation.

 

[cvanwey]

Indeed so, a serious rejection of another person.

Often in real life, that would happen whenever you treat someone as if they are not even good enough to know.

Pretty evil, really.

You pretty much just ignored my entire post. Please try again:

(post #38)

For mountains to exist, must craters exist? No. You can merely have valleys. And from the valley, which is neutral, you can still assess a mountain.

Same goes for 'love'. If you do not love someone, must you hate/despise them? No. You can still assess love, without imposing the opposite. You could simply just not love.

Thus, can 'good' exist without "evil"? Apparently so, as well. Apparently, only 'good' exists in Heaven. How would you know Heaven is all "good", if no "evil" exists there?.?.?.? (answer) If a still-born goes directly to Heaven, can the still-born, whom never experienced 'evil', still know they are in a perpetual state of 'good'? Apparently so.

Thus, your argument fails.

Thanx

 

[Halbhh]

I'm replying to your comment "all things work for their good?"

If a child suffers and then dies, prior to the age of enlightenment, why would the prior suffering be necessary? The child is not yet able to distinguish between 'right' and 'wrong', "love' or 'hate', etc, ....and then perishes.

Furthermore, if this child only ascends to heaven, for eternity, how would the child know it is eternal bliss, if no bad exists in heaven, and this child never achieved moral maturity?

Additionally, if perishing children get a free ticket to heaven, where as you and I may instead need to play the wait-and-see-game, for God's judgement; why not just dispatch all young children. This seems most altruistic, if the goal is to guarantee human salvation.

That's a form of the general question: Why does anyone suffer? Or more narrow: Why do the innocent suffer?

Then you seem to ask next: How could a child that did not suffer be ready for heaven? (as you worded it: "if this child only ascends to heaven, for eternity, how would the child know it is eternal bliss, if no bad exists in heaven"?)

Of course, obviously if they suffer here in a mortal body first, then they can know bliss is better than suffering from experience.

But that's not the whole answer. There is more. God is the One Who is able to know what we need, individually.

Individually: different souls needing different things to be completely ready. Some needing more, but some not needing as much, because they are more close to just-right already. Maybe some souls already really in a perfect place, even before birth.

But if not, He can do what it takes -- see 1rst Peter 3:18-4:6: souls can be given a chance after this mortal life to turn to Christ in faith, and be changed for the better, even after the mortal body has perished.

All of the above also answers the last question (if you were paying attention). To restate (in case you prefer): God is the one who knows just what the individual, unique soul needs, uniquely.

Could I suggest you are approaching Christianity wrong? It's not about proving it correct or incorrect by logic -- neither is possible. Instead, to try out Christianity in a real way, one would have to do the specific things Jesus taught we must do, the things He indicated are essential. There's not another way to find out in a conclusive way.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I do not use faith to determine the truth, only what I hope to be true though a mature faith does have a certainty of truth about it alright.

So you believe God exists because you hope He exists? Can't we believe anything on faith then?

This seems to state that you need proof, which is the opposite of faith. Alas we are saved by faith, not proof.

I don't like the term proof because it implies 100% certainty. I like to say I need sufficient evidence for belief or convincing evidence. I don't think 100% certainty of anything is attainable and the level of evidence I need to be convinced is based on the claim. If you said you have a dog in your backyard I would believe you without any further evidence. If you claimed you had a living T-Rex in your backyard I would need better evidence than just your say so.

If we have sufficient evidence for something then we don't need faith. We can believe based on the evidence. If we don't have sufficient evidence then faith will not reliably lead us to truth.