Could a smaller church be better?

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Well, I disagree. That question has been out there for a good while and the church keeps losing folks. What's the church getting wrong? Judgment begins at the house of God.

I would suggest part of the reason is because the Church gave up any means of power to actually influence people and their lives. It accepted the premises of Liberal Secularism and we have reaped the consequences. Are we surprised as Christians who believe in original sin, that people, when they have the choice and are encouraged to do what their nature tells them to do, that they reject Christianity in theory and practice?

The Church has always had problems internally, there have always been sinners in her, but that didn't stop her from dominating Rome or Medieval Europe, did it?

 

[Davy]

So my question then is: Is the fact that the church in the Western world is declining in numbers necessary a bad thing or could it be heralding the return of a more devout church?

In the Old Testament, the houses of worship that taught and did their own thing God called 'Beth-Aven', which means 'house of vanity'.

God's House is a Church where His Word is taught, preferably chapter by chapter and line upon line.

If the believer is more interested in the Church being a social atmosphere instead of hearing and learning The Word of God, then that person is not really interested in their Salvation.

 

[public hermit]

dominating Rome or Medieval Europe, did it

No offense, but that "dominating" mindset is part of the issue. The cross exhibits no domination. And yet, it defeats evil and saves people. Love can't be enforced.

means of power

What is the greatest power that Christians have? Our love is our power. We overcome evil with good, not by force but by love.

What does the University system know about the self-giving love of Christ. Nothing. So, if that's what is emptying out the churches, then perhaps the churches need to rethink what they're doing?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

No offense, but that "dominating" mindset is part of the issue. The cross exhibits no domination. And yet, it defeats evil and saves people. Love can't be enforced.



What is the greatest power that Christians have? Our love is our power. We overcome evil with good, not by force but by love.

What does the University system know about the self-giving love of Christ. Nothing. So, if that's what is emptying out the churches, then perhaps the churches need to rethink what they're doing?

The Church should rethink what it's doing in terms of what? Not giving into the demands of secular liberalism fast enough? Not accepting Homosexuality fast enough? Not accepting all the modern credos and values of social justice? Like what do you mean the Church needs to look inwardly?

Christians always look inwardly, they always should confess themselves sinners, but this doesn't stop us from getting on with the business at hand. Of being active caretakers of the world, trying to better it.

Your hesitancy to stand against the University system demonstrates the sort of reluctance which I think is poison for future generations of Christians. If you support the status quo at this moment then you support a system which has denigrated the faith over the course of the last half a century. If I am wrong to attribute at least some blame on the society that we live in and all the fault lies with Christians, then there is absolutely nothing to be done but to give up.

 

[public hermit]

If I am wrong to attribute at least some blame on the society that we live in and all the fault lies with Christians, then there is absolutely nothing to be done but to give up.

No, not all the blame. But, we need more "in-house" critique from those who actually love the house, so to speak.

Your hesitancy to stand against the University system demonstrates the sort of reluctance which I think is poison for future generations of Christians.

But to what extent has the radical love of Christians been tried here lately? We are still functioning within Christian institutions that for a long time functioned from a place of dominance and power. That is not the case now. We have not yet adjusted to our rightful place as outsiders and rejects from the world. We do all the whining, but have earned few legitimate stripes. How do we live the Christian life now? You think my approach will bring demise. Your approach has been the prevailing approach for a really long time and it hasn't worked. This is not a culture war. This is the world, and we are in to live as God's people in the world, loving as we have been loved. What does that look like from a Christian institution, in this moment? What are ways that we could embody Christian love now, that we aren't?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

No, not all the blame. But, we need more "in-house" critique from those who actually love the house, so to speak.

Every day on these forums we see people debating within Christianity the flaws and pros of it's theology and history. There is hardly a lack of it within Christendom broadly.

But to what extent has the radical love of Christians been tried here lately? We are still functioning within Christian institutions that for a long time functioned from a place of dominance and power. That is not the case now. We have not yet adjusted to our rightful place as outsiders and rejects from the world. We do all the whining, but have earned few legitimate stripes. How do we live the Christian life now? You think my approach will bring demise. Your approach has been the prevailing approach for a really long time and it hasn't worked. This is not a culture war. This is the world, and we are in to live as God's people in the world, loving as we have been loved. What does that look like from a Christian institution, in this moment? What are ways that we could embody Christian love now, that we aren't?

Has my approach failed? Historically it hasn't, only when Christians acceded to secularism and the self-limitation of religion in public places and institutions did we start to see this collapse. Mostly beginning from the 18th century until now. It's been a slow process but we see the fruits of a Christian retreat from the popular culture or the culture war. By being above it all we have seen Christians become below it all.

You speak of radical love but what does that entail? Whenever I hear modern Christians speak of love it usually in regards towards the acceptance of everyone for everything. It's the type of love G.K Chesterton spoke about when he observed the modern world is too good, it's the virtues gone mad.

 

[public hermit]

Has my approach failed?

Well, let's back up. I'm assuming a lot here about your approach. But all I have really heard is what you think Christians shouldn't do. I have an idea of what your approach is, which is pretty much do the same thing we have always done. But maybe that's not fair.

What would your approach be? How should Christians address the current situation besides not sending their children to University? Benedict option?

 

[East of Eden]

But it's not the function of universities to lead people to Christianity.

It also isn't their function to lead people away from Christianity, which some actively do.

The fact many are rejecting Christianity isn't the fault of the churches IF they are truly preaching the Gospel. Many if not most rejected Jesus on earth.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Well, let's back up. I'm assuming a lot here about your approach. But all I have really heard is what you think Christians shouldn't do. I have an idea of what your approach is, which is pretty much do the same thing we have always done. But maybe that's not fair.

What would your approach be? How should Christians address the current situation besides not sending their children to University? Benedict option?

Benedict option is one choice and a legitimate one. The Amish have benefitted from it and as a model it holds a lot of attraction to me. Though it is a retreat from the world and that's the only problem I have with it. It leaves the world to itself and that's the only criticism we can lay against the Benedict option.

For those who are in the world and hold to a traditional form of Christianity they have to understand that there is no winning within secular liberalism. Not in the short term. All the institutions of power which matter are a new Cathedral which dominate the social atmosphere we currently live in. Thus we should be more concerned with ourselves, developing our commitments and improving ourselves while not overtly challenging the system. Otherwise in the current climate you will be destroyed if you have any sort of status.

I don't see a quick reversal or successful short term challenge to the current order of things. That's just not on the cards.

 

[public hermit]

Thus we should be more concerned with ourselves, developing our commitments and improving ourselves while not overtly challenging the system.

This is kind of what I'm saying. It's time to regroup, repent, refocus. We have everything we need, it's just that we became spoiled with too much power, too much comfort, too much control. I truly believe (in the spirit of the thread) that the decline in the quantity of Christians could be a very good thing. It's simply the cycle of life. We hurt, we seek, we find, we forget....we hurt, we seek, we find, we forget...

We forgot, now we get to remember.

 

[Hmm]

It also isn't their function to lead people away from Christianity, which some actively do.

The fact many are rejecting Christianity isn't the fault of the churches IF they are truly preaching the Gospel. Many if not most rejected Jesus on earth.

People have mental autonomy and have to take some responsibility for their beliefs. If someone learns astronomy at university and rejects their faith because they have been told they have to accept that the earth is 6,000 years old in order to be a Christian, is that really the fault of the university? I would say they need to reject, not Christianity, but the particular version of it that they have been taught. An increased knowledge of truth in any area should not lead anyone to lose their faith because all truth is of God.

 

[Hmm]

I think churches are much better when they’re smaller. A helpful example of smaller being better is in most types of consumerism.

Food’s great, it comes with flavours, but the bigger any organisation gets, the less they’ll be bothered by flavours and nutrition, while they’ll be bothered much more by hitting their sugar and salt quotas (smashing the pleasures circuits it our brains.) The bigger the product becomes, the less profit margins will allow for things like spices, sours etc, they’re considered undesirable by a possible spending audience.

The trade off for catering to the smaller audience who adore spices often isn’t worth it. The church is often no different.

Same goes for movies, music and even politics, the bigger they get there’s a organisation wide blandening. Everything needs to be a little less spicy/meaningful/sincere so that everyone feels like their voice was heard.

Big churches (if they’re good at what they do) cater to everyone and no one all at the same time.

Small churches have an identity, vision, purpose, not always, but imo it’s more likely that they will have those things.

Excluding the obvious churches in decline, which are small, though only populated by an aged audience of nice enough acquaintances who keep each other company.

Nice analogy! I think I like my Christianity served up

I think churches are much better when they’re smaller. A helpful example of smaller being better is in most types of consumerism.

Food’s great, it comes with flavours, but the bigger any organisation gets, the less they’ll be bothered by flavours and nutrition, while they’ll be bothered much more by hitting their sugar and salt quotas (smashing the pleasures circuits it our brains.) The bigger the product becomes, the less profit margins will allow for things like spices, sours etc, they’re considered undesirable by a possible spending audience.

The trade off for catering to the smaller audience who adore spices often isn’t worth it. The church is often no different.

Same goes for movies, music and even politics, the bigger they get there’s a organisation wide blandening. Everything needs to be a little less spicy/meaningful/sincere so that everyone feels like their voice was heard.

Big churches (if they’re good at what they do) cater to everyone and no one all at the same time.

Small churches have an identity, vision, purpose, not always, but imo it’s more likely that they will have those things.

Excluding the obvious churches in decline, which are small, though only populated by an aged audience of nice enough acquaintances who keep each other company.

Nice analogy! I like plenty of sin o' man with my Christianity (took me ages to think of that hence the delayed reply!)

 

[East of Eden]

People have mental autonomy and have to take some responsibility for their beliefs. If someone learns astronomy at university and rejects their faith because they have been told they have to accept that the earth is 6,000 years old in order to be a Christian, is that really the fault of the university? I would say they need to reject, not Christianity, but the particular version of it that they have been taught. An increased knowledge of truth in any area should not lead anyone to lose their faith because all truth is of God.

We were talking about the CofE, I don't think they're telling people the earth is 6,000 years old. The Bible doesn't say how old the earth is.

 

[Cormack]

We were talking about the CofE, I don't think they're telling people the earth is 6,000 years old. The Bible doesn't say how old the earth is.

I think that’s part of where @Hmm is coming from, namely where does the onus of responsibility lay whenever Christians are hoodwinked by the culture. Who dropped the ball, the universities or churches.

The Church of England (depending on the culture) is practically inoculating young churchgoers against a passion for Christ and the Christian faith. This according to Richard Dawkins.

When those same young people arrive at university, and their shaky tug boat faith gets blown out of the water, Christians don’t normally like that. They don’t like people falling away from the faith.

That’s why people want to get into where the responsibility to trained Christians rests.

In my opinion, though Christians have a legit claim to many of these educational institutes, they’ve lost the culture war that’s upstream of everything else.

We can’t expect modern secular institutes to act as though they’re Christian, rather, we should fight for churches to be Christian.

Yes there’s a history of Christian involvement in universities, but to live as though we’re dominate there is to live in the past, most Christian faculty have given up on the universities.

Universities didn’t put a knife in the back of believers but rather in the front. It’s churches that have stabbed believers in the back.

Knives literally everywhere! Hit the dirt!

 

[Hmm]

Knives literally everywhere! Hit the dirt!

It would probably be a butter knife in the case of the Church of England!

 

[EpicScore]

It also isn't their function to lead people away from Christianity, which some actively do.

The fact many are rejecting Christianity isn't the fault of the churches IF they are truly preaching the Gospel. Many if not most rejected Jesus on earth.

Unfortunately, a lot of churches don't. I've mentioned it before, but I've seen a lot of churches operate under the assumption that all their members are already believers who no longer need hear the gospel again, and thus merely focus on progressive sanctification, i.e. they preach Christlikeness without preaching Christ Himself, thus leading to a legalistic religion that divorces God's commandments and His loving character.

Or they get increasingly influenced by political correctness in order to stay relevant and stray so far from the Scriptures, that, again, creates a hogwash message that actually appeals to no one.

There's also the unfortunate tendency of many churches to completely disengage with "secular" matters, and limits its discussions on things that are exclusively spiritual/moral/ethical matters, so that it perpetuates the idea that faith and intellect are mutually exclusive with each other, which is probably what encourages the modern "intellectuals" to actively speak against Christianity and religion in general.

We can’t expect modern secular institutes to act as though they’re Christian, rather, we should fight for churches to be Christian.

Yes there’s a history of Christian involvement in universities, but to live as though we’re dominate there is to live in the past, most Christian faculty have given up on the universities.

Is that really fair though? After all, a person will spend more time in their school than at church over the course of their studies, so they are likely to be more influenced by the former's worldview than the latter.

Also, given that Christianity and the Lordship of Christ are meant to influence and change the whole person rather than just the religious aspect of their life, a Christian university deciding to remove God from all of their subjects because they consider it "irrelevant" to the lessons is just as bad as a church doing the exact opposite by removing everything "secular" from their preaching and teaching.

 

[East of Eden]

As much as I admire the CofE from afar, you have to wonder how the whole premise jives with Jesus saying 'My Kingdom is not of this world', and that the road to salvation is narrow. Although there are some wonderful, lively parishes and teachers such as the late John RW Stott, there are many other clergy who let's be honest, aren't really Christians. The Bible says with such people don't even eat. The CofE is far more influenced by culture than the other way around, the opposite of the early church.