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Corruption of Christianity

Paradoxum

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Do you think Christianity might have lost something when it became the majority?

It seems to me that for something to become the majority worldview it can't require significant sacrifice, great commitment and radical change. I doubt the average person has the inclination or perhaps even the ability to give their whole self to faith. They have to raise a family, go to work, study, socialise, go to church and be 'good' people. All important things; all with roughly equal emphasis. But then faith just becomes an important thing.

They forgot why they believed in the first place. What it meant. Why it was different. It became common place. Easy. The societal norm. Plain. Luke-warm. Powerless.

"Believe Jesus dyed for your sins, come to church every Sunday and keep a few rules we give you and you'll be fine."

Should faith be hard?


(My view is more complex than this, but I don't want to write too much)
 

quatona

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Do you think Christianity might have lost something when it became the majority?
When was that, roughly?

I doubt the average person has the inclination or perhaps even the ability to give their whole self to faith.
Very few people have the inclination to give their whole life to anything.
They have to raise a family, go to work, study, socialise, go to church and be 'good' people. All important things; all with roughly equal emphasis. But then faith just becomes an important thing.
It seems to me that Christianity (or the bible, if you will) itself regards all these things important. So it would be a little weird if doing those things that Christianity values high were taking away from Christianity, or watering it down.

I´m not sure where you are heading here.
Do you think Christianity should be reserved for those who are refusing to lead a "normal" life in favour of committing themselves to isolation, prayer and study of the bible (monks and nuns etc.)?
Or do you think God demands everyone to refuse to lead a "normal" life (with procreation, social bondages, work and all the consequences)?


They forgot why they believed in the first place.
Why did they believe in the first place?
What it meant. Why it was different.
What did it mean? Why was it different?
It became common place. Easy. The societal norm. Plain. Luke-warm. Powerless.
Well, yes, if your ideas are common place and the societal norm there is little need to fight for them.
So do you think the objective of "spreading the word" was not really thought through? Should Christianity (or any other serious worldview, for that matter) have made precautions to remain a fringe opinion?


Should faith be hard?
No - why? Just so that it´s hard?

No matter what idea we are talking about: there will always be those people who commit themselves fully to the idea, people who support the idea intensively but not with unconditional commitment, people who try their best to integrate it into their "normal" lives, people who merely enjoy the benefits, people who just pay lipservice (and the same spectrum of intensity will exist on the opposing side).
 
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quatona

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If I'm not careful, I can fail at being a Christian.

The only failed atheists I've ever heard of are the ones who become born again as Christians. I've never heard of a "bad" atheist.
Well, everyone can fail to match their own standards.
(I´m not assuming you go so far to say that atheists don´t or can´t have standards).
 
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Paradoxum

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When was that, roughly?

Well I don't know if I can accurately give a time, but perhaps it began when it became the religion of Rome, but I suppose it took a while for Christianity to become ingrained into the Empire and the countries left behind after. Is it cliche to say power corrupts?

My history isn't excellent, so perhaps that will be my arguments down fall ;)

Very few people have the inclination to give their whole life to anything.

True.

It seems to me that Christianity (or the bible, if you will) itself regards all these things important. So it would be a little weird if doing those things that Christianity values high were taking away from Christianity, or watering it down.

Its not that doing these things is bad, but that the radical change which I think the Bible presents doesn't appear to be the case in many Christians lives. They are just people who get their rules and beliefs from a different place than non-Christians. Perhaps I have it wrong, but should 'faith' be not only important, but everything.

I´m not sure where you are heading here.
Do you think Christianity should be reserved for those who are refusing to lead a "normal" life in favour of committing themselves to isolation, prayer and study of the bible (monks and nuns etc.)?

Not quite. I guess this higher faith should be emphasised.... if it is possible. Perhaps by differentiating between types of faith. Saving faith and radical faith?

Or do you think God demands everyone to refuse to lead a "normal" life (with procreation, social bondages, work and all the consequences)?

I don't think these things should be given up, or that everyone should attempt this sort of faith. God knowns I couldn't.

In part this is a response to conservatism in Christianity, in a hope that a change of emphasis would promote growth... which would be towards my positions. How arrogant of me :p

Why did they believe in the first place?

Well of course I would like to give my liberal understanding of Christianity mixed up with 2000 year old beliefs. I think they had less emphasis on belief alone though.

What did it mean? Why was it different?

I would say it rejected societies norms, whereas today many Christians accept them. They think they reject them because they differ in beliefs, but I mean a difference in heart and commitment which produce action.

Well, yes, if your ideas are common place and the societal norm there is little need to fight for them.

Heretics were hardly tolerated. As Mill said, when you suppress the minority, the majority forgets how to defend itself. I don't know if it is true, but maybe Christianity caused its own downfall in recent times by its intolerance of conflicting beliefs in the past.

So do you think the objective of "spreading the word" was not really thought through? Should Christianity (or any other serious worldview, for that matter) have made precautions to remain a fringe opinion?

It needed to be spread, but maybe in a different way, emphasising different things, presenting it in a different way. I don't think this applies to all serious worldviews though, only ones that claim radical change.

No - why? Just so that it´s hard?

No matter what idea we are talking about: there will always be those people who commit themselves fully to the idea, people who support the idea intensively but not with unconditional commitment, people who try their best to integrate it into their "normal" lives, people who merely enjoy the benefits, people who just pay lipservice (and the same spectrum of intensity will exist on the opposing side).

Maybe you are right.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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All an atheist has to do is not believe in God or gods. Other than that, there are absolutely no standards. As long as you reject God and disdain the supernatural, atheism requires nothing of you.

Keeping the faith = difficult

Criticizing those who keep the faith = easy
I'm an atheist and I support this message :thumbsup:
 
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JRSut1000

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I think I know what you're getting at, OP, when something is fought for it seems to have more value than if its just a given. But in many ways Christianity has become so complacent, at least here in comfortable society. But true Christianity that is fought for is very much alive in other countries and they are seemingly more ready to accept the cost of following Christ. It's all they have and they cling to Him because they know their help comes from Him. True joy comes in knowing Him and trusting Him more than anything else. But we here in western civiliation seem to struggle with this due to some obvious reasons. Dont get me wrong, Im not against wealth, I'm against complacency and at times the two can correlate.

Ah yes and the concept of Christianity being hard - Jesus did say narrow is the way to life and broad the way that leads to destruction, few enter the narrow gate. Also in other places Scripture says that those who endure to the end will be saved/receive the crown of life.
 
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Received

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I think anything has the potential to lose something when it becomes the majority.

Essentially, an ideology can be valued as an attempted representation of how things work. That can be applied to Christianity, Communism, or anything else. It's when the value shifts from this to a cultural unifier that things become dangerous, and when the attempted representation loses flavor. The problem with popular Christianity isn't the (thin, transparent) element of Christ still ghostly in its resonating presence from a distant past when the majority of its followers actually believed it for its own sake, but with the implicit value of its adherents toward being "in" while denouncing those "out". Very much a herdlike, animalistic drive, albeit qualified by consciousness. Like rats who destroy a member of its own nest who leave a while and come back with the smell of another nest on him.
 
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Ana the Ist

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All an atheist has to do is not believe in God or gods. Other than that, there are absolutely no standards. As long as you reject God and disdain the supernatural, atheism requires nothing of you.

Keeping the faith = difficult

Criticizing those who keep the faith = easy

True, true, and...true. I would liken keeping faith to staying ignorant. It's difficult to do when you're constantly faced with facts/truth. You have to shut your eyes really tight, plug your ears with your fingers and say "la la la la...."
 
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quatona

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All an atheist has to do is not believe in God or gods. Other than that, there are absolutely no standards. As long as you reject God and disdain the supernatural, atheism requires nothing of you.
This is correct and undisputed - and if you want to reduce atheists to their being atheists you almost have a point.
 
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Paradoxum

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I think I know what you're getting at, OP, when something is fought for it seems to have more value than if its just a given. But in many ways Christianity has become so complacent, at least here in comfortable society. But true Christianity that is fought for is very much alive in other countries and they are seemingly more ready to accept the cost of following Christ. It's all they have and they cling to Him because they know their help comes from Him. True joy comes in knowing Him and trusting Him more than anything else. But we here in western civiliation seem to struggle with this due to some obvious reasons. Dont get me wrong, Im not against wealth, I'm against complacency and at times the two can correlate.

Ah yes and the concept of Christianity being hard - Jesus did say narrow is the way to life and broad the way that leads to destruction, few enter the narrow gate. Also in other places Scripture says that those who endure to the end will be saved/receive the crown of life.

By the way I'm not saying that Christians need to be persecuted ;)

I think anything has the potential to lose something when it becomes the majority.

Essentially, an ideology can be valued as an attempted representation of how things work. That can be applied to Christianity, Communism, or anything else. It's when the value shifts from this to a cultural unifier that things become dangerous, and when the attempted representation loses flavor. The problem with popular Christianity isn't the (thin, transparent) element of Christ still ghostly in its resonating presence from a distant past when the majority of its followers actually believed it for its own sake, but with the implicit value of its adherents toward being "in" while denouncing those "out". Very much a herdlike, animalistic drive, albeit qualified by consciousness. Like rats who destroy a member of its own nest who leave a while and come back with the smell of another nest on him.

I think it is different for Christianity and communism. With communism it is simply meant to be a good system whether you are used to the system or not, but with Christianity it is about a change in how you see the world, rebirth. I guess the difference is that you can't be born into Christianity, it is meant to impact you at some point in life.
 
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neutralino7

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Let us both assume the word of God is the truth (which I believe.)


Unfortunately, Christianity has become a religion, and the focus is on earthly things (not spiritual things.) For example, God encourages tithing, but hates usury. He loves it when a man knows a woman intimately (for procreation or pleasure,) but only if said man and woman are monogamous as to symbolize the marriage of Christ to the Church (of believers.) The things believers do are supposed to have spiritual meanings to them. The vegetables only diet before the flood (given by God) was supposed to symbolize us eating things that have no blood - no life force. In other words, we don't have to kill things to eat them. Moses casting a brown serpent on a rod that healed the Israelites bitten by snakes in the desert (according to the power of God) had the spiritual meaning of Christ being crucified on a rod (the cross,) in which His death keeps us all from dying. Christ wasn't a serpent, but just like the serpent (the symbol of evil/death) was used to heal the men mortally wounded by serpents, Christ became sin to heal those that had been mortally wounded by sin (us.) Christ even destroyed the physical temple, and built a spiritual one unbounded by walls. Yet, this is missed by "the Church."

You can be holy, and raise a family, go to work, and have tremendously powerful faith. Most all the Israelites did just that. But, can you be holy, and be a "functioning member of 'society'" with even sufficient faith? That is the real question for Christianity, because being a functioning member of society means Government is in your top five. It means science, and the faith in its accuracy thereof, is in your top five. It means money is in your top five. These three things alone only leave two spots for God, love, family, holiness and faith, friendship, fellowship, and self. Yet, the latter things are the more spiritually rich items; governments fall, science is wrong many times, and money systems collapse. Moreover, jobs are lost, status is removed and humbled, etc. So, being a holy man/woman of faith conflicts with being a "functioning member of society" because the priority will [should] be on God for the holy wo/man.

Faith, love, worship and fellowship in God will be number 1 to the holy wo/man. Belief in and love for Christ comes in at an interchangeable 2nd. Love for family, friends and strangers AND love for self tie for third and fourth, and then love of the beauty of God's creation should round out a Christian's top five. For most people that have a top five similar to this, they are usually not prominent figures in society. This person wouldn't care about money, status, the rise and fall of governments, or even what science says is possible/impossible/right/wrong. Calamity (poverty, death in family, physical/emotional trauma, etc.) would not phase this person, because this physical body is trivial when compared to the spiritual body the Christian believer will receive at the resurrection. No one has mastered holiness save Christ. He is the model for believers.


Many people in "the Church" have become very preoccupied with getting money to pay bills, calamity within the family, jobs and providing for the family, the economy and political environment. It has even become a perversion on both sides: preachers/ministers/priests molesting, using and taking advantage of members of the church, and church members who feed these perversions with ignorance and apathy. As a result, faith in God has become a commonplace and trite concept, rather than a spiritual parent to love and worship. Moreover, the fruits of the spirit (love, honor, responsibility, patience, etc.) have been dampened. Jobs, bills, family matters and the economy are important, but not nearly as important as focusing on God and trusting Him. Christ said God knows what we need, making a parallel between the birds of they sky having food when they need it, and shelter when they need it. Moreover, God says that our bodies are more than clothing, and our lives are more than food. So, I think Christians make faith hard by trying to be "functioning members of the societies of earth," and not "functioning members of God's family." This is the meaning of being in the world, but not being of the world. Faith can be very easy if we believe, and follow God. But we put blocks upon ourselves by trying to be of this world. These blocks are what corrupt Christianity; e the word of God is corrupted to justify the things of the world, so that living in this world is less abrasive and more comfortable.

To believers, no human is "good." All are deserving of God's wrath for transgressing His holy universal laws (by sinning.) However, by His grace (undeserved compassion, patience, forgiveness and long-suffering,) God allows us to be close to Him in worship and love, especially through the sacrifice of Christ. There is no way even a holy man can be good. Therefore, morality is meaningless to the believer, as the standard is set by a human. However, it is important to recognize that "morality" overlaps with many of the standards of God. For example, murder is wrong in the eyes of morality and God. Infidelity is wrong in the eyes of morality and God. Deceit is wrong in the eyes of morality and God. This is because the universal laws of God are written on the hearts of men - both believer and non-believer.
 
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dlamberth

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Do you think Christianity might have lost something when it became the majority?
I think that the teachings of Jesus got lost in a big way when the way of love that he was pointing towards was reduced to dogma.

.
 
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