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Copyright

IbrahimFahim

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Copyright: Forever Less One Day - YouTube

I found this video today, and I feel it's very well made. I thought it might be good to discuss something other than Obama, welfare, and/or tax cuts for a thread.

I fail to see why people cannot copyright their property. If I built a home, I, or my legal surrogates, could control its future down to the nth generation. Why should intellectual products be any different? There are obvious exceptions, medicinal for example, but I see little reason J.K. Rowling, or her legal heirs, could not control Harry Potter in perpetuity.
 
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Vylo

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Because as stated in the video, to do so subverts the ability of authors/directors to create new material based on previous works. As our society has grown, it is becoming increasingly hard to create a completely original work. "there is nothing new under the sun".

The purpose of the copyright laws was to promote writing, not stifle it. By ensuring authors that they could reap exclusive benefits of their work for 28 years, it encouraged authors to create works, as they couldn't be ripped off. It benefits authors and the audience. Extending this beyond the death of the author only benefits companies looking to hoard IP and maximize profits. It stifles creativity, and you end up with twisted stories progressively more about marketing then story-telling.
 
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thaumaturgy

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Oh goody! Intellectual Property topics! yay! I love those.

Copyright is a harder nut to crack. It's much more "spongy". It is automatically granted even if you never apply for it in the U.S. Only thing is, you can't get redress for non-registered copyrighted materials.

So this text here I'm writing on my computer is technically copyrighted. (So hands off my brilliance unless you wish to copy it to make a direct point related to it which falls under "fair use").

I love Intellectual Property rights. I'm a fierce advocate of a strong patent system and trademark system (we need to, to paraphrase Obama, pass patent reform "right away"). Copyrights are wonderful things as well.

I do, however, agree with the thrust of the video that life+lotsa years is probably a bit overblown and might actually be detrimental to extrapolative works.

I'm actually OK with George Lucas "afflicting himself" on his own creations the rest of his natural life. I'd even be OK if his copyrights extend a couple years beyond his being frozen permanently in Carbonite.

But sooner or later everything that enters the human thoughtstream should be made freely available to the rest of us to molest as we wish. (In my opinion nothing was too harsh for Jane Austen's creations)

The reason I'm ok with Jabba the Director chaining his creations and dressing them hilariously is because they are the product of his mind. They truly are "his".

Obviously at some point the concepts of Star Wars become so commonplace that you have to assume it will work its way into the social network.

The reason I can make jokes like the above is due to "fair use" criteria. THAT'S an interesting topic in and of itself. I can make fun of Lucas based on how he's buried us in trash like Jar-Jar Binks and digital effects added decades after the originals etc. I can mention these things by name because it is necessary for me to make my valid criticisms.

But why should I be able to make coin off of my interpretation of Luke Skywalker's "experimental college years" in off-kilter relationships (even if it is amazingly complex and wonderful art filled with torment and drama and shocking revelations)? Luke, unless he acts as an avatar of some greater concept I wish to cover in re: the topics leveraged from Star Wars and/or criticism of this, he is not mine to toy with.

Unless, of course, I lease him from Jabba.

So in my humble opinion:

Yeah: extend (c) to life of author and maybe give the immediate family some coinage for a couple years later. Decades and decades? NO.

(Offered as opinion since I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, even if I would make and incredible Perry Mason-like figure (c) )
 
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IbrahimFahim

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Because as stated in the video, to do so subverts the ability of authors/directors to create new material based on previous works. As our society has grown, it is becoming increasingly hard to create a completely original work. "there is nothing new under the sun".

The purpose of the copyright laws was to promote writing, not stifle it. By ensuring authors that they could reap exclusive benefits of their work for 28 years, it encouraged authors to create works, as they couldn't be ripped off. It benefits authors and the audience. Extending this beyond the death of the author only benefits companies looking to hoard IP and maximize profits. It stifles creativity, and you end up with twisted stories progressively more about marketing then story-telling.

I really do not think it does. J.K. Rowling was certainly not inhibited at all. She has, likewise, spun off an entire series of similar child specific fantasy stories, some of which are not bad. I personally like both Joseph Delaney and John Flanagan (both good subjects of the Queen). I absolutely loved Susanna Clarke's "Jonathan Strange..." book.

I do not necessarily know if any of these were inspired by Rowling or not, but there has been some good fantasy to come out in recent years, and I cannot believe that IP inhibited any of them.

There is also a considerable amount of goodness to come from regulation. I do not want any idiot with a Word Processor to have access to anything they like. If someone is going to write another Star Wars book, it had better be someone with some talent and brains. I liked Timothy Zahn, but the Star Wars novelizations went dramatically downhill quickly when everyone jumped into the mix.
 
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IbrahimFahim

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But sooner or later everything that enters the human thoughtstream should be made freely available to the rest of us to molest as we wish. (In my opinion nothing was too harsh for Jane Austen's creations)

How dare you, Sir. Ms. Austin is a wonderful author. But how could one expect a colonial to understand good literature, you hardly even drink tea like a civilized individual!!!!! :)
 
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thaumaturgy

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How dare you, Sir. Ms. Austin is a wonderful author. But how could one expect a colonial to understand good literature, you hardly even drink tea like a civilized individual!!!!! :)

Indeed I am a grungy colonial. Albeit a severe anglophile, but Jane Austen is where I draw the line! She took from me nearly 2 months of my high school existance. Time I will NEVER get back!

But speaking of a proper british dissing I have recently found this gem:

Fighting Trousers - Professor Elemental - YouTube
 
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IbrahimFahim

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Indeed I am a grungy colonial. Albeit a severe anglophile, but Jane Austen is where I draw the line! She took from me nearly 2 months of my high school existance. Time I will NEVER get back!

But speaking of a proper british dissing I have recently found this gem:

Fighting Trousers - Professor Elemental - YouTube

If those two months involved Ms. Austin, then they were well spent indeed. We should all have two months with Ms. Austin from time to time.
 
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Willtor

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...

There is also a considerable amount of goodness to come from regulation. I do not want any idiot with a Word Processor to have access to anything they like. If someone is going to write another Star Wars book, it had better be someone with some talent and brains. I liked Timothy Zahn, but the Star Wars novelizations went dramatically downhill quickly when everyone jumped into the mix.

Why not allow anyone with a Word Processor to have access to anything they like (after it's been out for 28 years)?

Consider Harry Potter: J.K. Rowling is a household name. When she writes, people will buy and read (copyright or no). Everybody knows Harry Potter originally came from her. And there will be plenty of "canon" websites and other literature that will trace her work, and her work alone. As you say, there will be Harry Potter vs. Connor MacLeod vs. Darth Vader fan fic. It's noise. Who cares? Nobody will read it, just as they don't, now... except for people who are into that kind of thing. And, honestly, where's the harm in that? On the flip side, however, some young and aspiring author will retell the Harry Potter story in a way that is both subtle and brilliant. And the culture will be enriched because of it. And J.K. Rowling will like it or not. If so, bully for her. If not, she can cry all the way to the bank.
 
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thaumaturgy

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Why not allow anyone with a Word Processor to have access to anything they like (after it's been out for 28 years)?

Consider Harry Potter: J.K. Rowling is a household name. When she writes, people will buy and read (copyright or no). Everybody knows Harry Potter originally came from her. And there will be plenty of "canon" websites and other literature that will trace her work, and her work alone. As you say, there will be Harry Potter vs. Connor MacLeod vs. Darth Vader fan fic. It's noise. Who cares? Nobody will read it, just as they don't, now... except for people who are into that kind of thing. And, honestly, where's the harm in that? On the flip side, however, some young and aspiring author will retell the Harry Potter story in a way that is both subtle and brilliant. And the culture will be enriched because of it. And J.K. Rowling will like it or not. If so, bully for her. If not, she can cry all the way to the bank.

This debate really devolves down to "term" of the ip. In patents we are happy in the U.S. now with 20 years from filing date. That seems reasonable and so the argument seems reasonable that copyright should be similarly limited. 28 years is good.

But personally I am OK with someone's individual creativity to be allowed to track with their lives. I really don't have a reason to break apart copyright from patents I suppose, so in a sense I'm not really defending my own original point.

A lot of patents are done by individuals working for corporations or organizations who are "assigned" the patent rights (at least that is the case for all of my patents) so I don't really enjoy a signficant "connection" to my intellectual property except to list it on my CV. Maybe that is why I hold copyright kind of apart.

If I were to actually invent a widget that was mine and from which I was going to be the sole assignee for the rest of my life I'd probably want patent terms extended as well.

So I'm open to re-considering my position. Right now I sort of feel like the authors I've read deserve to have their creations for the term of their lives, but maybe that's because I hold that aspect somewhat different from "invention of a useful item".

Even design patents don't have that long a term.

So I am finding myself more and more ambivalent about copyright terms as I think through this.
 
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Umaro

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I fail to see why people cannot copyright their property. If I built a home, I, or my legal surrogates, could control its future down to the nth generation. Why should intellectual products be any different? There are obvious exceptions, medicinal for example, but I see little reason J.K. Rowling, or her legal heirs, could not control Harry Potter in perpetuity.

What are your thoughs on Disney, a world changing company that rose almost exclusively on remaking the works of others? Should they have been prevented from making Alice in Wonderland because it would belong to Carroll's heirs?
 
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Willtor

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This debate really devolves down to "term" of the ip. In patents we are happy in the U.S. now with 20 years from filing date. That seems reasonable and so the argument seems reasonable that copyright should be similarly limited. 28 years is good.

But personally I am OK with someone's individual creativity to be allowed to track with their lives. I really don't have a reason to break apart copyright from patents I suppose, so in a sense I'm not really defending my own original point.

A lot of patents are done by individuals working for corporations or organizations who are "assigned" the patent rights (at least that is the case for all of my patents) so I don't really enjoy a signficant "connection" to my intellectual property except to list it on my CV. Maybe that is why I hold copyright kind of apart.

If I were to actually invent a widget that was mine and from which I was going to be the sole assignee for the rest of my life I'd probably want patent terms extended as well.

So I'm open to re-considering my position. Right now I sort of feel like the authors I've read deserve to have their creations for the term of their lives, but maybe that's because I hold that aspect somewhat different from "invention of a useful item".

Even design patents don't have that long a term.

So I am finding myself more and more ambivalent about copyright terms as I think through this.

I'd worry about extending the terms of patents. Ultimately, if someone files a patent on widget A, and you think of an extension, A', and you don't have the means for licensing, you aren't in a position to act on your idea for 20 years. That really slows innovation. As a society we accept that slowed innovation for the sake of not allowing inventions to die with their creators. But can you imagine if Tim Berners-Lee had patented the world wide web? Now, on top of that, can you imagine if patent rights lasted for the life of the inventor?
 
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thaumaturgy

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I'd worry about extending the terms of patents. Ultimately, if someone files a patent on widget A, and you think of an extension, A', and you don't have the means for licensing, you aren't in a position to act on your idea for 20 years.

You can patent under someone else's invention, you won't be able to practice it, but by the same token they won't be able to practice your innovation.

If that innovation is sufficiently valuable it would be in their interest to license the extension from you.

A patent is a "negative right" in that it allows you to keep others from practicing, it does not give you the right to practice.

That really slows innovation.

Only insofar as the various parties don't see the value of the extension.

I realize that KSR has really played havoc with "obviousness" and made extending harder. But if it truly is a non-obvious application that will make the original better a mutually beneficial outcome can be achieved.

As a society we accept that slowed innovation for the sake of not allowing inventions to die with their creators.

Actually the patent system was set up with the idea that the inventor gets a "limited monopoly" of sorts in return for publishing their invention for everyone to see.

It's a quid pro quo for both inventor and society.

But can you imagine if Tim Berners-Lee had patented the world wide web? Now, on top of that, can you imagine if patent rights lasted for the life of the inventor?

As I said I'm actually OK with patents having a limited lifetime. The ideal of the patent concept was to provide a limited span of control by the inventor to make his or her ka-ching off the invention so long as they published the way the invention works in an "enabling" fashion so that after the limited "monopoly" term is up anyone can practice it.

The idea of a written work of art seems a bit different, in that the benefit to society of endless re-workings of Harry Potter doesn't seem to be as important as remembering the artist who originally came up with the idea. But again, I'm open to revisiting my concepts on shortening copyright terms.

I don't think, however, that patent terms are overly long and I don't really think they "stifle" innovation in light of the benefit to the innovators and the stimulus that provides.
 
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Umaro

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The idea of a written work of art seems a bit different, in that the benefit to society of endless re-workings of Harry Potter doesn't seem to be as important as remembering the artist who originally came up with the idea. But again, I'm open to revisiting my concepts on shortening copyright terms.

I don't think, however, that patent terms are overly long and I don't really think they "stifle" innovation in light of the benefit to the innovators and the stimulus that provides.

Take the recent 2010 Alice in Wonderland movie that Tim Burton did. Granted it was terrible, but had it been distributed by someone other than Disney would it be the end of intellectual property? Carroll's work was protected until 42 years from publication, and since then there have been plenty of re-imaginings. Disney built it's empire off of it and other public domain stories. If I felt right now I could make a better Alice in Wonderland movie, I'd be free to go out and do it, just like all the other people who have. Lewis Carroll is not being robbed of anything, and Disney can't be said to be as they borrowed the idea in the first place. The question is, would culture be better off as it is now than if no one past the original author had used Alice, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Red Riding Hood, Three Little Pigs, etc? Shrek for instance was a wildly popular movie, and the entire thing was because after a reasonable amount of time all those ideas became public domain.

I'd say something around the authors death, or 50 years, whichever comes second, would be a reasonable protection. The absurd decades and decades we have now just seems in excess.
 
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keith99

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Because as stated in the video, to do so subverts the ability of authors/directors to create new material based on previous works. As our society has grown, it is becoming increasingly hard to create a completely original work. "there is nothing new under the sun".

The purpose of the copyright laws was to promote writing, not stifle it. By ensuring authors that they could reap exclusive benefits of their work for 28 years, it encouraged authors to create works, as they couldn't be ripped off. It benefits authors and the audience. Extending this beyond the death of the author only benefits companies looking to hoard IP and maximize profits. It stifles creativity, and you end up with twisted stories progressively more about marketing then story-telling.

If we go with forever for copyright Rowlings has some pretty big problems. There is not much that is totally original in her work. That is NOT to say her work is a rip off in any way, but almost all fantasy is built on traditions of the genre. If all character types were totally original the result is almost sure to either take far too long to build up or make plot twists seem like they are pulled out of thin air (or the opposite, being no twist at all).

The Time loop idea she used has been done before and better. If that was copyrighted (and it was used in a copyrighted work) both Harry Potter and Back to the Future would be in violation.

But if we go with that broad brush the works I'm thinking of might never have been written as the Author (R.A. Heinlein) used a lot from Twain. If I were better read I could figure out who Twain drew from.
 
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thaumaturgy

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If we go with forever for copyright Rowlings has some pretty big problems. There is not much that is totally original in her work. That is NOT to say her work is a rip off in any way, but almost all fantasy is built on traditions of the genre. If all character types were totally original the result is almost sure to either take far too long to build up or make plot twists seem like they are pulled out of thin air (or the opposite, being no twist at all).

The Time loop idea she used has been done before and better. If that was copyrighted (and it was used in a copyrighted work) both Harry Potter and Back to the Future would be in violation.

Actually, as I understand it, this is a part of what is not covered by Copyright. You can't copyright a "concept" or "idea" (LINKY). So "time travel" as a concept would not be copyrightable. If I were to write a story in which time-travel is done then that story is copyrightable. If write a story about Bobo McPherson, Time Travelling Party Favor Designer then I can copyright that. I could describe his time-travelling trouser press which would be copyrightable and I could probably even trademark "Time-travelling trouser press", but I couldn't copyright time travel or the ideas.
 
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Willtor

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You can patent under someone else's invention, you won't be able to practice it, but by the same token they won't be able to practice your innovation.

If that innovation is sufficiently valuable it would be in their interest to license the extension from you.

A patent is a "negative right" in that it allows you to keep others from practicing, it does not give you the right to practice.

Not usually. Your A' widget may not be patentable. It may be an incremental extension that, given some reflection, would be obvious to anyone skilled in the field. But A' leads quickly to A'' (also, an incremental extension) to someone else. The company that owns the patent on widget A may not be looking for A', and so A' waits until the patent has expired.

Innovation is slowed by patents. The good that they are designed to achieve is not in the rate of innovation -- it is in not allowing innovations to disappear, once they have been discovered. The idea of a patent is one that takes a longer view of history, sacrificing short-term potential gains for stability and guaranteed forward progress in engineering.

Only insofar as the various parties don't see the value of the extension.

I realize that KSR has really played havoc with "obviousness" and made extending harder. But if it truly is a non-obvious application that will make the original better a mutually beneficial outcome can be achieved.

I'm not, here, concerned with the general brokenness of the patent office. The U.S. patent office is busted. But the principle of patents isn't busted. I think it's a good idea.

Actually the patent system was set up with the idea that the inventor gets a "limited monopoly" of sorts in return for publishing their invention for everyone to see.

It's a quid pro quo for both inventor and society.

That's what I said. We deliberately allow innovation to be slowed so that inventors don't take their ideas to the grave.

As I said I'm actually OK with patents having a limited lifetime. The ideal of the patent concept was to provide a limited span of control by the inventor to make his or her ka-ching off the invention so long as they published the way the invention works in an "enabling" fashion so that after the limited "monopoly" term is up anyone can practice it.

The idea of a written work of art seems a bit different, in that the benefit to society of endless re-workings of Harry Potter doesn't seem to be as important as remembering the artist who originally came up with the idea. But again, I'm open to revisiting my concepts on shortening copyright terms.

If I write a book, and sell less than a thousand copies in 28 years, in all likelihood I am not going to sell a million in the next 28. If it was a good idea, but I'm a lousy writer, let better writers run with the idea. If the next writer sells a million copies, I know to whom I can talk about co-authoring a book. If it was well-written but a lousy idea, let me be the one to rework the good ideas of others, poorly expressed.

On the other hand, if I sell ten million copies over 28 years, I'd say the money from sales rewards me adequately for my work. The book is still valuable, and maybe it will sell two million copies in the next 28 years. But I wasn't given the copyright because I owned the idea. I was given the copyright as incentive to write it in the first place. If it makes me sad to lose the copyright, I can save some cash by carpooling with J.K. Rowling on her way to the bank. ;)

My ownership of the copyright shouldn't act as a disincentive to my children toward work.

I don't think, however, that patent terms are overly long and I don't really think they "stifle" innovation in light of the benefit to the innovators and the stimulus that provides.

I think software patents are generally bogus. I think the idea might be fundamentally flawed. Regarding other patents, I think the patent office needs reform, and I don't know how long the terms should last. Maybe the terms are fine.

But they definitely stifle innovation. That's okay with me. I like guaranteed forward progress. It's a cost I'm willing to pay. I don't like that nobody knows Stradivari's formula and that his violins can't be reproduced.
 
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thaumaturgy

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Not usually. Your A' widget may not be patentable. It may be an incremental extension that, given some reflection, would be obvious to anyone skilled in the field.

That's why I brought up KSR v Teleflex in my post. But, indeed, it is not uncommon for someone to patent _under_ another patent and cross-license. It is a valid business plan.

But of course it does have to be non-obvious to be patentable.

Innovation is slowed by patents.

Yes and no. Innovation doesn't necessarily have to be slowed by patents. The idea being that if the Examiner doesn't get ridiculous "obviousness" linkages then innovation _can_ continue. That's why we have an appeals process for the patent examination.

Sure it may slow "tiny incremental innovation" but it doesn't necessarily have to.

I'm not, here, concerned with the general brokenness of the patent office. The U.S. patent office is busted. But the principle of patents isn't busted. I think it's a good idea.

I'm not so sure the U.S. patent system is _that_ busted. Definitely we need reform and I'm not as familiar with the prosecution in Europe but if we even go so far as to align our terms and "first to file" we'd make things a lot less confusing and litigious what with the elimination of "swearing back" an invention based on lab notebook dates etc.

But I'm wholly familiar with all the problems U.S. has vs other country's patent system.


If I write a book, and sell less than a thousand copies in 28 years, in all likelihood I am not going to sell a million in the next 28. If it was a good idea, but I'm a lousy writer, let better writers run with the idea.

And again, the _idea_ really isn't what is copyrightable according to the USC. But I agree that a better author could take a lousier authors work and make something great and indeed _that can happen right now_ even if copyright terms were extended all the way to the death of the original author. The author can assign copyrights.

The reason this becomes a trickier issue than say a utility patent is that we are dealing with a creative work. There's no real _intrinsic_ value to "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" that moves our society forward that couldn't have come from another source. It is like any work of art; a work of art.

Let's say Picasso is still alive and maybe I don't like Picasso (I don't, actually) and I want his work to be more like Galen-Kallela (a painter I do like) so I take a Picasso and muck it about to make it look like Galen-Kallela. But that doesn't mean that it's a Picasso anymore. It is now something quite different.

Not necessarily better or worse, but different.

I think the art is different from utility patents.

But generally I am far more ambivalent about term of copyright than I patents. It is far more "touchy-feely" and gets down to topics of what is "art" and what is the "artistic process" and should it attach solely to the artist.

If I make an atomic widget that helps reduce the cost of electricity for all of humanity and then someone makes a "super atomic widget" and makes it even better we can debate the value of how long or how to move this technology forward.

But derivative works of art outside of fair use is somewhat trickier in my mind as to how much control an artist has over his or her original work.




If the next writer sells a million copies, I know to whom I can talk about co-authoring a book. If it was well-written but a lousy idea, let me be the one to rework the good ideas of others, poorly expressed.

On the other hand, if I sell ten million copies over 28 years, I'd say the money from sales rewards me adequately for my work. The book is still valuable, and maybe it will sell two million copies in the next 28 years. But I wasn't given the copyright because I owned the idea. I was given the copyright as incentive to write it in the first place. If it makes me sad to lose the copyright, I can save some cash by carpooling with J.K. Rowling on her way to the bank. ;)

My ownership of the copyright shouldn't act as a disincentive to my children toward work.



I think software patents are generally bogus. I think the idea might be fundamentally flawed. Regarding other patents, I think the patent office needs reform, and I don't know how long the terms should last. Maybe the terms are fine.

But they definitely stifle innovation. That's okay with me. I like guaranteed forward progress. It's a cost I'm willing to pay. I don't like that nobody knows Stradivari's formula and that his violins can't be reproduced.[/QUOTE]
 
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