Copper into Gold?

[pawnraider]

I'm reading a book written by a false prophet and he makes this rather incredible claim: “For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold.” If there are any scientists or those knowledgable about the subject out there I would appreciate any thoughts and comments you may have regarding his claim.

 

[Blayz]

nuclear fusion would be required to turn copper into gold. Does that answer your question?

 

[Cabal]

Neutron capture tends not to occur in mines, so no.

I'd be more concerned with what actual metallurgists have to say on such matters rather than "false prophets".

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm reading a book written by a false prophet and he makes this rather incredible claim:

False prophet, incredible claim -- does that surprise you?

 

[Michael]

I'm reading a book written by a false prophet and he makes this rather incredible claim: “For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold.” If there are any scientists or those knowledgable about the subject out there I would appreciate any thoughts and comments you may have regarding his claim.

I don't see any connection between the concept of it becoming solidified or not and it "turning into gold". Fusion or fission/radioactive bombardment, would be required to turn copper into gold. Keeping it a liquid for 70 years wouldn't turn it into anything else, let alone gold.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't see any connection between the concept of it becoming solidified or not and it "turning into gold". Fusion or fission/radioactive bombardment, would be required to turn copper into gold. Keeping it a liquid for 70 years wouldn't turn it into anything else, let alone gold.

The writers of the NIV had no problem turning brass into bronze, eh?

 

[Naraoia]

Neutron capture tends not to occur in mines, so no.

I'd be more concerned with what actual metallurgists have to say on such matters rather than "false prophets".

Don't you need like a supernova to fuse anything into gold?

 

[RocksInMyHead]

The writers of the NIV had no problem turning brass into bronze, eh?

This sounds like an issue of translation rather than nuclear chemistry - in other words, completely unrelated.

@OP: No, copper cannot turn into gold if it is just left sitting in a mine, even in liquid form. And it would take quite a lot of heat to turn copper into a liquid (~1000 C, or ~2000 F). You have to go pretty deep in the Earth to reach those temperatures - to the mantle, in fact - where the concept of a "mine" wouldn't really work. Most minerals have lower melting points than that, so the Earth wouldn't be exactly solid at the depth. More like a semi-solid crystalline mush. As other people have pointed out, the only way to turn copper into gold would be via nuclear fusion (fission wouldn't work since copper is a smaller atom than gold).

For reference, copper (and most metals) are deposited as part of saturated solutions of minerals and water that flow through cracks in the rock and deposit bits of metals and other minerals behind as they cool. That's why gold is often found with quartz.

 

[Lillen]

barley and wine?

 

[Huram Abi]

It isn't literal. The 70 years is the length of a man's life, from a baby to old age. It is saying it takes a lifetime for a man in isolation to refine himself into something of value in the same way that faith can do in a moment. If you read on it says:

"Be that as it may, the real elixir will, in one instant, cause the substance of copper to attain the state of gold, and will traverse the seventy-year stages in a single moment. Could this gold be called copper? Could it be claimed that it hath not attained the state of gold, whilst the touch-stone is at hand to assay it and distinguish it from copper?

Likewise, these souls, through the potency of the Divine Elixir, traverse, in the twinkling of an eye, the world of dust and advance into the realm of holiness; and with one step cover the earth of limitations and reach the domain of the Placeless. It behooveth thee to exert thine utmost to attain unto this Elixir which, in one fleeting breath, causeth the west of ignorance to reach the east of knowledge, illuminates the darkness of night with the resplendence of the morn, guideth the wanderer in the wilderness of doubt to the well-spring of the Divine Presence and Fount of certitude, and conferreth upon mortal souls the honour of acceptance into the Ridvan of immortality. Now, could this gold be thought to be copper, these people could likewise be thought to be the same as before they were endowed with faith."


As I see it, literalism is going to be the death of all religion.

 

[thaumaturgy]

I'm reading a book written by a false prophet and he makes this rather incredible claim: “For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold.” If there are any scientists or those knowledgable about the subject out there I would appreciate any thoughts and comments you may have regarding his claim.

The thing that makes one element different from another is the number of protons in the nucleus.

As such without something hammering into the nucleus (which takes a lot of energy or very specialized conditions or something to turn some of the neutrons into protons and ejecting an electron) copper isn't going to turn into gold.

Copper has 29 protons in its nucleus and Gold has 79 protons. The rest of the mass of these nuclei are made up of various numbers of neutrons, but the "identity" of the element is set by the number of protons.

Here's another pointer: copper deposits are formed in a number of ways but I have never heard of a molten copper deposit (which seems to be what the author here must be thinking in terms of but that's hard to tell).

Copper ore is usually formed as a sulfide of Copper. It can form in sedimentary rocks or in assocation with some igneous rocks (called a Porphyry copper deposit). Some of the large open pit mines you see pictures of are porphyry copper deposits.

Native copper (pure copper, not a sulfide or oxide) is found in nature and the likely origins are:

Possible natural origins of native copper include: precipitation from sulfide-bearing hydrothermal solutions in rocks containing ferric oxide; deposition from sulfur-deficient magmatic or hydrothermal solutions; deposition from meteoric or hydrothermal chloride solutions in the presence of calcite, prehnite, or zeolites; precipitation from hydrothermal solutions by ferrous salts; organic precipitation from meteoric waters; reduction of copper sulfides by meteoric waters in the zone of oxidation; reduction of primary copper sulfides by later hydrothermal solutions. (SOURCE)

 

[pawnraider]

As I see it, literalism is going to be the death of all religion.

So then, should I take what you've just said literally or not? Being literal has served everyone rather well so far wouldn't you say?

 

[thaumaturgy]

So then, should I take what you've just said literally or not? Being literal has served everyone rather well so far wouldn't you say?

I note you have JRR Tolkien's initials as your avatar, Pawn. Can I ask if you take the stories of JRRT to be literal and true? Is there anything to learn from a metaphorical reading of stories?

I think in fact that metaphor has served mankind exceedingly well!

 

[AV1611VET]

So then, should I take what you've just said literally or not? Being literal has served everyone rather well so far wouldn't you say?

ZING!
​

 

[pawnraider]

I note you have JRR Tolkien's initials as your avatar, Pawn. Can I ask if you take the stories of JRRT to be literal and true?

Wow. You're kidding, right? Why do you think the stories of JRR Tolkien are classified as fiction and therefore placed in the fiction section of bookstores?

I think in fact that metaphor has served mankind exceedingly well!

That's becuse everyone knows that they're metaphors and are to be understood only as such.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Wow. You're kidding, right? Why do you think the stories of JRR Tolkien are classified as fiction and therefore placed in the fiction section of bookstores?

Ahhh, so the only way to know the Bible isn't fiction is because it's not in the fiction area of the bookstore. Got it.

I don't know why the Church didn't stumble on this argument eons ago!

That's becuse everyone knows that they're metaphors and are to be understood only as such.

Sort of like Genesis. I mean the account of the creation of the world and the "fall" of man is so classically metaphorical (and since almost nothing about it corresponds to what we know of the actual geologic history of the earth, it only really makes sense as a metaphor).

The "Fall" of man really is one of the more interesting metaphors in the Bible. As an atheist I still find it a compelling story about "responsibility" and the concept that once grown up you must take responsibility for your actions. You have the "knowledge of good and evil". Childhood's innocence is a paradise lost.

The Noachian Flood, another reasonable metaphor for a cleansing. Although I rather assume since it is predated by the Gilgamesh epic it was a "borrowed story" and may relate to stories of a local disastrous flood.

Jesus spoke in parables as well. Is a parable a literal story? Or a teaching device predicated on metaphor?

Literalism in religion usually only serves to make the religion look "silly", but then I was never really a literalist when I was a Christian so I don't understand that mindset.

Literalism in religion is the "easy way out" for those who don't want the burden of using the mind.

 

[Upisoft]

So then, should I take what you've just said literally or not? Being literal has served everyone rather well so far wouldn't you say?

Of course you can't. The religions are not living beings. They can't die. People can stop practicing them though.

 

[AV1611VET]

PWNT

It actually looks out of place there.

If it is anything other than a KJV, I would surmise a KJVO put it there as a mischievous way of making a point.

 

[pawnraider]

Ahhh, so the only way to know the Bible isn't fiction is because it's not in the fiction area of the bookstore. Got it.

I don't know why the Church didn't stumble on this argument eons ago!



Sort of like Genesis. I mean the account of the creation of the world and the "fall" of man is so classically metaphorical (and since almost nothing about it corresponds to what we know of the actual geologic history of the earth, it only really makes sense as a metaphor).

The "Fall" of man really is one of the more interesting metaphors in the Bible. As an atheist I still find it a compelling story about "responsibility" and the concept that once grown up you must take responsibility for your actions. You have the "knowledge of good and evil". Childhood's innocence is a paradise lost.

The Noachian Flood, another reasonable metaphor for a cleansing. Although I rather assume since it is predated by the Gilgamesh epic it was a "borrowed story" and may relate to stories of a local disastrous flood.

Jesus spoke in parables as well. Is a parable a literal story? Or a teaching device predicated on metaphor?

Literalism in religion usually only serves to make the religion look "silly", but then I was never really a literalist when I was a Christian so I don't understand that mindset.

Literalism in religion is the "easy way out" for those who don't want the burden of using the mind.

Oh great. Another athiest who has nothing better to do than to start an argument. No offense but I'm going to pull the ripcord on this rabbit trail because very rarely does one person convince the other of their position.

Jesus spoke in parables as well. Is a parable a literal story?

And why do you think they were called parables? Not wanting to prolong the argument, just making a point.

 

[Upisoft]

The writers of the NIV had no problem turning brass into bronze, eh?

Yeah, that can happen when you have a language with one word only for copper and copper alloys.