Convince me to become Calvinist

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Hello!

I've been exploring the Calvinist-Arminian divide ever since I got saved. I have been trying to explore both sides from an unbiased perspective, and I understand what both sides teach, but I still have a lot to learn.

My family is almost entirely Arminian, and I'm about the only one who leans Calvinist. However, the church we go to has a Calvinist leaning, despite my mom and stepdad being Arminians.

Why did you become a Calvinist?


I find both sides, along with Molinism to be convincing.

How do you respond to the common criticism of Calvinism such as God being the author of evil or that men are essentially robots?

Also, what about John Calvin himself? I respect the guy and think he has some good ideas and was definitely smart, but I feel like Calvinists place greater importance on him than Jesus. That's just my personal observation, is all.

Thanks!

 

[brightlights]

Hello!

I've been exploring the Calvinist-Arminian divide ever since I got saved. I have been trying to explore both sides from an unbiased perspective, and I understand what both sides teach, but I still have a lot to learn.

My family is almost entirely Arminian, and I'm about the only one who leans Calvinist. However, the church we go to has a Calvinist leaning, despite my mom and stepdad being Arminians.

Sounds like the Holy Spirit has already done most of the work of convincing you to become a Calvinist already!

Why did you become a Calvinist?

Reading the Bible.

How do you respond to the common criticism of Calvinism such as God being the author of evil or that men are essentially robots?

I simply remind them that Calvin never taught that God is the author of evil or that men are robots.

Also, what about John Calvin himself? I respect the guy and think he has some good ideas and was definitely smart, but I feel like Calvinists place greater importance on him than Jesus. That's just my personal observation, is all.

Calvin was a rare man of God and rare thinker. A once in a millennia kind of guy. Read a book like "Life in God" (biography of Calvin) to get a sense of this.

But I like Calvin because I love Jesus. Calvin helps me see Jesus more truly and more clearly.

 

[RC1970]

Why did you become a Calvinist?

I was predestined to be a Calvinist.

And he said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” ~ Mark 4:9

 

[twin1954]

Hello!

I've been exploring the Calvinist-Arminian divide ever since I got saved. I have been trying to explore both sides from an unbiased perspective, and I understand what both sides teach, but I still have a lot to learn.

My family is almost entirely Arminian, and I'm about the only one who leans Calvinist. However, the church we go to has a Calvinist leaning, despite my mom and stepdad being Arminians.

Why did you become a Calvinist?


I find both sides, along with Molinism to be convincing.

How do you respond to the common criticism of Calvinism such as God being the author of evil or that men are essentially robots?

Also, what about John Calvin himself? I respect the guy and think he has some good ideas and was definitely smart, but I feel like Calvinists place greater importance on him than Jesus. That's just my personal observation, is all.

Thanks!

Though I label myself here as a Calvinist for simplicity's sake I am not a follower of John Calvin. I hold to the Doctrines of Grace known as TULIP because I find them clearly revealed in the Scriptures. I am a Baptist but not a Reformed Baptist. I hold to Baptist Covenant Theology which differs from Reformed and Presbyterian Covenant Theology.

All of us are Arminians naturally. We want to keep hold of our supposed right to determine our own destiny. It is the default religious position.

I would never try to convince anyone to become a Calvinist. For if I did it would just be changing one theology for another. If I can convince you into a view someone else can convince you out of it.

It is the Spirit that must turn you from trusting in your ability to determine your destiny to trusting in Christ alone.

There are not two truths only one.

As to the nonsense of God being the author of sin and the robot argument they aren't worth bothering to answer. They are straw men built in order to easily tear down. I have clearly and truthfully rebutted those arguments many time with the same person only to have them repeated over and over again. It gets very tiring to refute the same nonsense over and over as though you had never done it.

Read the Scriptures seeking light and truth from on high and you will not need to be convinced to be a Calvinist.

 

[AMR]

The unbeliever will never seek God's righteousness for the unbeliever

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- is not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2);
- must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5);
- cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Given the moral inability of the unbeliever to choose the righteousness of God, then God must be the one to act, quickening the unbeliever (Eze. 36:26), to spiritual life, such that he is now not able to not believe.

Thanks be to God that He extended to me what I did not deserve, efficacious grace, versus what I did deserve from birth, justice.

I am confident Scripture teaches that salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God: the Father chose a definite number of people out of a contemplated fallen lump of humanity, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ’s death effective by bringing these people to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. This entire process is the work of God alone and is by God's grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

That is why I am a Calvinist. If it be the will of God, you will be one, too.

 

[hedrick]

I’m personally not a traditional Calvinist, but I will say that most of the problems you’re having aren’t specific to Calvinism. Anyone who thinks God is in control is going to have the same issues, whether they think about them or not.

As long as you think God knows what is going to happen, then he created the world knowing that certain people were going to be saved and others weren’t. He could have made everyone obedient, although the world would look very different if he did, but he chose not to do that.

So both Calvinists and Arminians believe that God created knowing what the results are going to be. That already raises the ethical questions: Was God wrong to create people who are going to be damned? How can we say there’s freedom if it’s known what is going to happen? These questions apply in both systems.

The difference is that Calvinists say that God intended the consequence of what he did and Arminians don’t. The Arminian argument has always seemed a little weird to me. With anyone but God, if you make a choice knowing that it’s inevitably going to lead to a particular result, we’d say you are responsible for the result.

Calvinists deal with the most serious issues with a concept calle “compatibilism.” This is the assertion that God’s control is compatible with considering humans responsible for their decisions. Basically the claim is that when someone does evil because the person’s character and motives are evil, we can reasonably consider them evil, even though they didn’t choose to be evil. Of course if you force someone to do something evil, and he didn’t want to do it, we don’t consider him responsible. But he’s not responsible because his act didn’t reflect what he really wanted.

But God isn’t forcing anyone to do evil. People who do it do it because they want to. So it reflects what they’re really like. Thus we can blame them, even though God’s plan includes everything. Essentially the claim is that what makes something a responsible choice is that it reflects their character and desires, rather than when someone is forced, when it doesn’t.

The fact is, none of us get to choose who we are. We can try to change, and people often do change in quite serious ways. But the initial desire to change comes out of what the person is, and various influences on them (including God's grace, of course). If we say that you’re not responsible for anything because the things that made you what you are are part of God’s plan and not under your control, it’s pretty clear that we’d never consider anyone responsible for anything. Now and then you’ll hear that: people will claim that bad people aren’t responsible for anything because they grew up in a bad neighborhood. But Christians generally reject that kind of excuse.

The other argument Arminians sometimes make is that in order to be responsible, your decision must be unpredictable. The moment someone could tell in advance what you’re do, supposedly it isn’t free. But I think this is silly too. Suppose you increase the amount of randomness in someone’s thought process. Eventually you reach, not perfect freedom, but madness. And at the other end, I’d claim that quite likely God is completely predictable (if you know as much as he does so you can fully understand what he does). It flows completely from what he is, with no randomness. Indeed I think decision-making that comes with complete coherence from our character and goals represents more freedom than decision-making that is all over the place.

In fact, I’m not convinced that Calvinists and Arminians actually disagree that much about the actual situation. We both agree that God has a plan that includes everything. Calvinists simply say that in that situation it’s reasonable to say that God intends it all, and Arminians don’t.

I’m sort of a moderate Calvinist. While I think it’s silly not to say that God intended what is going to happen, you can describe this in ways that make him sound evil, and which conflict with Scripture. At times Calvin sounds like God started out with a specific set of people that he set out to damn. He adjusted his plan to make completely sure that they didn’t have any hope of salvation. I don’t believe God had that intention. Why his plan is exactly the way it is, I don’t know. But I don’t think the Biblical picture is consistent with him simply wanting to damn a set of people, even if he could have gotten the kind of world he wanted without doing so. I do think, however, that he adopted a plan knowing that a specific set of people would be damned, and it’s silly not to say that he intended what he planned.

 

[sdowney717]

Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.


Proverbs 16:9New King James Version (NKJV)
9 A man’s heart plans his way,
But the Lord directs his steps.

Isaiah 46
“Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

Psalm 37:22-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 For those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth,
But those cursed by Him shall be cut off.

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord,
And He delights in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down;
For the Lord upholds him with His hand.

 

[bsd058]

A good starting place:

 

[JM]

Well, are you a Calvinist yet?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Hello!

I've been exploring the Calvinist-Arminian divide ever since I got saved. I have been trying to explore both sides from an unbiased perspective, and I understand what both sides teach, but I still have a lot to learn.

My family is almost entirely Arminian, and I'm about the only one who leans Calvinist. However, the church we go to has a Calvinist leaning, despite my mom and stepdad being Arminians.

I came from the same situation, except I do not recall hearing Calvinist leanings in any Church before becoming a Calvinist. To this day, I do not personally know, or have a personal relationship with another Calvinist in the area I live. I am partially to blame though for social awkwardness for the times we attended the only Presbyterian, the only Church in town I know of where Calvinists can be found. Although there were Calvinists (and every theology in between) at the local Presbyterian based College I attended for a couple of years as a part time student, that experience had little to no impact on my theology, I only remember a girl bringing up the name John Calvin, and I just kind of shrugged my shoulders not knowing anything about the man.

Why did you become a Calvinist?

It is a long story, the why and how I became a Calvinist. The most difficult part was the pain of dealing with how I had so many theological errors, coming from an erroneous interpretive framework. I am the type of person concerned with the certainty of faith, and that is what I see in the writers of Scripture a confidence that cannot be shaken, a faith so certain as to be willing to die for. One of the pivotal points for me came after spending a couple of years or so of discussing/debating/defending the faith with agnostics and atheists on a regular basis, doing much reading, studying, learning, and meditating on issues. Among other things I came to realize, the certainty of faith that I had, could never be proven to agonstics or atheists, and that the methods I used, failed to honor Christ as Lord, and even assuming the existence of God were proven, it would be a leap from a cosmological argument to the existence of God according to Christianity, much more the full orbed God as presented in Scripture. The lack of certainty, of always leaving a back door for the non-Christian, really began to work hard on me. Anyway, there are many other details and things I could get into, in short God conditioned me, He brought me to that point, through many different people and the cummulation of it all, left me little options, for all intents and purposes, I had been shattered into a million pieces.

If I get more time, maybe I can get around to responding somewhat to your other questions, thank you for asking, sorry I lack time to give a more thorough and rigorous response.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Well, are you a Calvinist yet?

Somewhat. I haven’t officially settled on a position, though it is the position I am leaning towards:

 

[JM]

What is holding you back?

 

[AMR]

Why I am a Calvinist - Humor

1. Calvinists tend to wear wool and cotton. Dispensationalists tend to wear lime-green polyester leisure suits.
2. John Calvin was French...being French is very chic.
3. Calvin sounds like Calvin Klein...and his clothes are very chic.
4. Calvinists can drink.
5. Calvinists can smoke.
6. Dispensationalists are into prophecy conferences where they talk about Star-Trek eschatology and the mark of the Beast. Calvinists have conferences on "life and culture", art, social justice, and other high-brow things like that. Afterwards, we go to the local pub and talk about philosophy over a pint of Bass ale.
7. Calvinists have close ties with Scotland and Scotland is very cool: you know—Sean Connery, the movie Highlander, Bagpipes, the Loch Ness Monster, Glenlivet 18 year old Scotch, the movie Train Spotting, Brave Heart, etc.
8. Calvinists think we are smarter than anybody else.
9. It is more socially acceptable to say, "I go to Grace Presbyterian Church" than to say, "I go to Washed In The Blood Worship Center", "I go to Son Life Charismatic Believers Assembly", or to say "I go to Boston Berean Bible Believing Baptist Bethel", or to say "I go to the Latter-Day-Rain Deliverance Tabernacle Prophecy Center, Inc.", or to say "I go to the Philadelphia Church of the Majority Text", or to say "I go to the Lithuanian Apostolic Orthodox Autocephalic Church of the Baltic union of 1838".

Spoiler

10. Ultimately, I am a Calvinist because I had no choice in the matter.

 

[AMR]

One more for while in the humorous mood:

A Baptist Man, a Pentecostal Woman, and a Calvinist all die and get to the gates of Heaven.

Peter tells them, “You’ve all done well, but to get into Heaven I am going to need to interview each of you in private to make sure your qualified.”

At this point the Baptist and Pentecostal are sweating bullets. Peter chooses the Baptist to go first. So, the Baptist and Peter go into a small room and are in there for 6 hours. The Pentecostal lady knows that if the Baptist man is having this hard of a time she really must be in trouble. Finally, after the six hours, the Baptist comes out and goes “Whew, I made it.”

Still very nervous, the Pentecostal Lady takes her turn and goes in. After 12 hours the Baptist Guy was starting to wonder if she would pass, but sure enough she comes out and says “Whew, I made it.”

Finally the Calvinist confidently walks into the room and shuts the door behind him. He’s in there for over 24 hours and the Pentecostal and Baptist are really starting to wonder what the heck is going on.

Spoiler

Finally, St. Peter comes out and says, “Whew, I made it!”

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Makes more sense to me knowing that the guy I see in the mirror had not much to do with it.

It's humbling knowing that I was chosen. Left up to me something would have went wrong.

M-Bob