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Oh I see. You do honor English - but only when it is convenient for you in a debate.
You accused me of misunderstanding the Greek (despite the majority of modern Greek scholars siding with me). That sword cuts both ways - why should we accept you as the world's foremost expert in English? Do you have a PHD in English grammar? Find me one single English grammar book indicating that an English genitive cannot be originating cause. The truth is, it happens in English all the time. I don't know what language you THINK you are the expert on here, but it certainly isn't English.I believe the English does not conflict with the original languages. Your interpretation went outside what the English said.
You accused me of misunderstanding the Greek (despite the majority of modern Greek scholars siding with me). That sword cuts both ways - why should we accept you as the world's foremost expert in English? Do you have a PHD in English grammar? Find me one single English grammar book indicating that an English genitive cannot be originating cause. The truth is, it happens in English all the time. I don't know what language you THINK you are the expert on here, but it certainly isn't English.
You accused me of misunderstanding the Greek (despite the majority of modern Greek scholars siding with me). That sword cuts both ways - why should we accept you as the world's foremost expert in English? Do you have a PHD in English grammar? Find me one single English grammar book indicating that an English genitive cannot be originating cause. The truth is, it happens in English all the time. I don't know what language you THINK you are the expert on here, but it certainly isn't English.
Um...that's non-responsive. I was questioning your reading of the English KJV. You're still speaking Greek (pun intended).Yes, because you did not grow up in Bible times. It doesn't matter if you had 1 million Greek scholars siding with you. You and none of them have grown up speaking and writing Biblical Greek to know such a language with 100% certainty. Now, I am not against the original languages, but it should not conflict with what the English says in the King James Bible. Your interpretation changes what the King James Bible says (Which is a Bible that was established for hundreds of years long before the Modern Translations showed up).
@Bible Highlighter,
Here's an English scenario for you. Suppose a major building shifts a bit. The owner of the building calls up the contractor complaining, "I'm going to sue you for laying down a bad foundation."
Contractor replies, "You're barking up the wrong tree. That's not my foundation. If you recall, you decided to hire out an independent contractor just to build that foundation. That's the foundation of the Bartlett and Son's company"
That's a genitive of originating cause. It parallels "the foundation of the apostles and prophets". Notice that the foundation doesn't CONSIST of Mr. Bartless and his sons (that would be an absurd reading). Rather it is a foundation LAID DOWN BY THEM.
As that scholar already warned us - that's the position of the majority of modern Greek scholars.
Um...that's non-responsive. I was questioning your reading of the English KJV. You're still speaking Greek (pun intended).
It's all about consistency. If you're going to boast in the KJV, you're already boasting in scholars.I quoted the verse because you boasted in a scholar.
@Bible Highlighter,
Honestly, I'm just tired. Just like times past, I refute your arguments time and again, and you don't directly address the real meat of my rebuttals. Instead you respond to tangents (strawman). I even gave you a real-world example of the English genitive in operation, and how it totally refutes your understanding of how English works, and you didn't even address THAT argument directly. So what's the point of debating with you? Clearly your mindset is, "I'm already convinced so don't confuse me with the facts!".
As I said, I'm exhausted, totally worn out on these kinds of debates where my rebuttals are never really addressed. I'll likely stop responding because I've got other priorities.
(Sigh). So where does the KJV explicitly say it is a "genitive of apposition" as opposed to a "genitive of originating cause" ? Clearly that is YOUR interpretation of the KJV.You have not refuted anything. You have not refuted what the King James Bible says. This is what you have to do in order for your belief to work. Many believers did not always have access to the Greek throughout history. So you would expect them to simply be in the dark until you and your favored scholars came into existence?
As expected. You continue to argue against conveniently fabricated positions (strawmen) instead of addressing MY position and MY arguments. With you, it's always a pretense of rebuttal and never an actual rebuttal.Paul is talking to the Ephesian believers when he says “ye” or “you-all.” He says that “ye [you-all] are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets.” It does not say “you-all are building a foundation with the apostles and prophets.”
Lovely. Without realizing it, you are now chastising Paul for putting a bit too much emphasis on the essentiality of Christ's role in the success of the church. In your view he should have toned it down a lot more. David didn't tone it down. He said,Also, why would the text stress that Jesus is the chief corner stone here? It's because the text mentions how the prophets and apostles are a part of the foundation (of which the Ephesian believers are built upon).
Um...No. If I lay down a foundation, I would later comment, "We then built ON the foundation." No one would say, "We then built WITH the foundation." ? ???In other words, your Bible version on Ephesians 2:20 would read like this....
“ye [you-all]... are building with the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.”
(Ephesians 2:19 a, Ephesians 2:20 Continuationist Influenced Translation).
Excellent point. YOUR claim is that the apostles and prophets were the foundation? (Oh that's right, you don't actually TAKE a position. Cessationists are conveniently a moving target on this question).Psalms 11:3 says,
“If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?”
I believe the Spirit can still guide a believer into all truth whereby they would not have any need that any man would teach them (1 John 2:27). This is not to say that God still does not use human teachers, but it is saying that a believer can have the anointing of the Holy Spirit to know all things.
I believe this applies to the believer today in guiding the faithful follower of Christ into what His Word (the Bible) alreadys says. The Bible is pretty big. It says a lot. God can surely guide our life by the Bible in many unique ways. I know. I have experienced this for myself many times. So I do not have any need for any new communicated message via a vision, dream, a prophecy, or a new holy book, etc.; I have a complete Bible. His Word is enough and God has talked to me many times using His Word. To go outside His Holy Word is to simply add to His Word. For Revelation talks about how we are not to add to the prophecy of this book. Revelation ends the book we know as the whole of the Bible. So we cannot add words to the Bible.
This to me is one of the biggest proofs for Cessationism.
For the moment we say prophecy is still in effect, is the moment we must add another holy book or writing to the Bible (When that would be adding to God's Holy Word).
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