Convince me of Continuationism.

topher694 · Jul 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Then where are they? Where are the Bible answers for the Cessationist points that I have raised?
Again, the thread is not pointless. I am asking for believers to put forth their case for Continuationism. If somebody knows of such a biblical case (even from another website), then they should quote from there or something. So no the thread is not pointless anymore than my asking to show the Biblical evidence for other Biblical topics.

You get bits and pieces of them right here... Because it is a huge time consuming task to put it together according to your standards... And you dismiss those bits out of hand. It makes it hard to paint a complete picture when you are being dismissed as wrong after one brush stroke

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

topher694 said:
You get bits and pieces of them right here... Because it is a huge time consuming task to put it together according to your standards... And you dismiss those bits out of hand

Well, I am asking for the truth, whether you believe I will accept it or not is another matter. Don't do it for me, but do it to help somebody else who may across this website reading. That is what I don't understand by some of the reactions here.

Side Note:

In all honesty, I am open to the truth, but it has to be from the Bible. I have prayed about this and I do honestly want to see the Continuationist viewpoint. But so far, it has not convinced me yet. This is why I am asking for more. I am asking for folks to make their case with the Bible in order to convince me and or others. Mocking the idea of how putting forth a biblical case for Continuationism only makes the Continuationist view appear weak from my perspective. But I am still holding out hope for another believer to make an effort still.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I leave some room for mystery so as not to condemn myself just in case I am wrong.

Carl Emerson said:
That is wise...

Thank you.

Word and Spirit · Jul 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
False slander. I did ask God about the truth of this topic before. But information in history is not our enemy, though. While I will admit that records in history could be written in a way to discolor the truth of certain individuals, you cannot change what that church currently believes today (Which of course stems from history).

Take for example the Latter Day Rain teaching. It is saying that the the Asuza Street Revival (the birth of the Pentecostal movement today) was a latter rain event. Pentecostals will sometimes condemn certain Charismatic groups like the Toronto Blessing because of the crazy and wild things that went on there. Little do they realize that the Asuza Street Revival had similar things take place, as well.

AZUSA STREET-Birth of a Lie

Again, I am not discounting that Continuationism may still be true amongst a sea of error.
I just need somebody to defend it using Scripture.

Mark 16:
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

1 Corinthians 12:
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts.

Guojing · Jul 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus said an evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. The Jews looked for signs. The Gentiles sought after wisdom. I believe Israel will repent as a nation and accept Jesus as their Messiah. But this will be during the End Times. One could make the argument that this is a reason why the sign gifts must continue. While this may sound like a good argument, the signs of Jesus' coming are the signs given to us in Revelation like with the sun and sky going black, the moon turning blood red, etc. There are other signs in Revelation showing that the Bible is true and Jesus will return at His second coming. So the sign gifts in the early church do not need to continue to show the coming of Jesus in Revelation. While I would like to believe in Continuationism, the evidence in Scripture seems to not be there or there are no strong verses to support it; Especially in light of Cessationist verses. But this is what this thread is about. Show me. Make your case. Make me believe using the Bible.

People love to quote that Jonah passage, but I have already given you the gospel of John.

John wrote his gospel as a record of the 8 signs that Jesus performed in order for Jews to believe that he is their promised Messiah (John 20:30-31).

In that record, the signs are seen as works of God. There are at least two times the John account explains that.

John 10:
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 14
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

You have to read John in the context of John 20:30-31.

I am actually leaning more towards cessationalist, just like you. But I have that view because of my mid Acts dispensationalist background.

Guojing · Jul 13, 2020

Albion said:
True, but irrelevant. It was the word Gospel that was causing the confusion.

And the message of the Gospel is that the Son of God assumed our human nature, took our sins upon himself, and made possible our salvation.

Other news that is good of course is to be found in scripture but that's another topic for another discussion.

Actually, for us former Gentiles who grew up reading Paul's epistles, it can be very difficult for us to put ourselves in the shoes of Jews during the time of Jesus's earthly ministry.

None of the Jews then were expecting their Messiah to die for their sins (Matthew 16:22). They had no expectations of heaven, and certainly weren't thinking of going to heaven when they die.

They were looking forward to Jesus bringing to kingdom of heaven down to earth, and saving them from Roman rule, whom they hated.

Luke 1 had Zacharias declaring what the Jews were expecting from their promised Messiah.

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

It was said that, before Jesus was born, during the 400 so years of silence after Malachi, the Roman great general Pompey actually entered their temple's holy of holies, curious to see what their image of God was like. That must rank as one of the big insults to Israel.

So to them, Jesus being sent to them as their promised King, to deliver them from Roman rule, was THE GOSPEL

And that gospel is called the gospel of the kingdom.

Tra Phull · Jul 13, 2020

I would like to point out some categories of Christians in regard to tongues.

1. Those who do not speak in tongues themselves, yet they have no systematic position that tongues have ceased. Even in the era that all admit tongues were happening, Paul wrote "do all speak in tongues?". These are Christians at a Baptist or Methodist church, whatever; they don't speak in tongues themselves, they know that at the AofG church down the road, people speak in tongues, and they don't poo-poo it, they are just not part of it.

2. Charismatics who do speak in tongues themselves, whether they are in a denomination like AofG or other Pentecostals, or whether they remained in a denomination not especially known for tongues. Like me, I remained Methodist, not running to another denomination where tongues were a main emphasis.

3. Cessationists, those with a systematic position that tongues have already CEASED, whether the ceasing occurred when, in their opinion, the last apostle died, or when the Bible was finished, or at some other time.

Folks, #3 is the smallest of these groups, IMO. They can be very vocal, especially on message boards, but they are a minority compared to those of #1 and #2.

#2 is a minority compared to #1 - for 47 years I have been in that middle minority.

The smallest minority are those committed to Cessationism. They are not worth getting excited about; their existence does not compel me to try to "prove continuationism" - they may squeal loudly on messageboards and demand this or demand that of continuationists - but they are just noise; just blind men describing the elephant to people who have actually seen the elephant (#2) or to those in #1, who may be content to "sit on the fence" about tongues for the rest of their lives.

But I feel the majority in #1 feels like "ok, others speak in tongues, and it doesn't bother me".

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

nolidad said:
I did not read all of your lengthy apologetic.

But according to your first three posts, you say that the imperfect will cease (the charismatic gifts) when the perfect comes and that the perfect is the perfect law of Liberty! That took place t Pentecost when the church was infilled with the Holy Spirit! so then those gifts whould have never taken place.

Why would Paul spend time writing so much about tongues to Corinthians if He knew they were soon to pass?? Why would he encourage them all to speak in tongues, but to practice love more if it were soon to cease??

Paul did not infer once that it was asign for Jews, but a gift to edify the church like prophecy and miracles and healings!

I could write loads of philosophic reasons, but Scripture never once says they are imperfect or that it sets a time for them to cease. Prophecy will cease, faith will cease tongues will cease- but not yet!

What is the meaning of "face to face" in 1 Corinthians 13?

Well, I believe we will see our image conform or change to the image of Christ in light of the "Bible / Glass / Mirror" by our obedience to Jesus's commands (Note: See the pictures below within this post). As we obey His Word, we conform more to the likeness of Christ and when we look in the mirror of God's Word (the Bible), we see the image of Christ in the reflection and not our old reflection by the fact that we are conforming to that "perfect Word" that He has given us. So yes. We do see Christ in the mirror "face to face" but it is only by our conforming to Christ by our obedience to Him. The focus of 1 Corinthians 13 is love. Loving as Christ loved. As a whole: 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 13, 1 Corinthians 14 are dealing with gifts. Although these gifts were necessary at one time (to confirm the Word of the New Covenant and the early church), these gifts have ceased, and they are no longer needed (Because that which is "perfect" has come, i.e. the Bible) whereby we can be "perfect" or be a "mature man" by obeying God's Word by faith (and not by sight). For 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work.

"And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord..." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (AMPC).

"As all of us reflect the glory of the Lord with unveiled faces, we are becoming more like him with ever-increasing glory by the Lord’s Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (ISV).

"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (John 6:40).

2 "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure."
(1 John 3:2-3).

To all:

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2).

16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Gifts are something people can see. But the Word of God (the Bible) is a faith thing.

Jesus said,
"...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).

This would be us today with the Bible.
We don't need spiritual gifts to see in order to believe.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1).

Side Note:

The second image (above) that has a picture of Christ is not what Jesus obviously looks like. I only posted this image for illustrative purposes only. Jesus is not white or European and He more than likely did not have long hair, either.

When I speak of how we must obey God's laws: I am referring primarily to how we must obey those commands in the New Testament, and not the Old Testament. Things like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, the Passover, etc. are ceremonial laws that are no longer binding upon the life of the believer today under the New Covenant. We should focus on obeying those commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

Tra Phull · Jul 13, 2020

I would like to add that denominations not well-known for charismatic endeavors have had its presence felt as well. I have attended a charismatic Episcopal church in Dallas; and have gone to Wednesday night charismatic Catholic services in San Antonio.

Carl Emerson · Jul 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
The signs gifts were for the unbelieving Jew because Jews sought after a sign and Gentiles sought after wisdom.

Healing flows out of God's heart as a matter of compassion. Think the lady with the issue of blood. Jesus character and motivaton was to respond to sufferring. Notice she didnt even ask - the gift flowed period...

So to insist the gifts were only operating as a sign is frankly wrong.

Carl Emerson · Jul 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, I am asking for the truth, whether you believe I will accept it or not is another matter. Don't do it for me, but do it to help somebody else who may across this website reading. That is what I don't understand by some of the reactions here.

Side Note:

In all honesty, I am open to the truth, but it has to be from the Bible. I have prayed about this and I do honestly want to see the Continuationist viewpoint. But so far, it has not convinced me yet. This is why I am asking for more. I am asking for folks to make their case with the Bible in order to convince me and or others. Mocking the idea of how putting forth a biblical case for Continuationism only makes the Continuationist view appear weak from my perspective. But I am still holding out hope for another believer to make an effort still.

If you truely want the truth, start praying for folks for healing and see what God does...

Radagast · Jul 13, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
If you truely want the truth, start praying for folks for healing and see what God does...

You keep saying that. But Cessationists believe in praying to God for miraculous healing. The Cessationist/Continuationist debate is not about that.

I can only assume that the "soft Continuationist" actually agrees that the "gift of healing" that Peter and Paul had has ceased, along with foreign-language tongues (as in Acts of the Apostles 2:6-11) and infallible prophecy.

Radagast · Jul 13, 2020

Word and Spirit said:
he was a missionary in Columbia. He got a call to the bedside of a man that was dying

There are a lot of poorly documented stories from the mission field. They are consistent either with the hard Cessationist position (with no proper documentation, we assume the stories are all false) or with the soft Cessationist position (we give missionaries the benefit of the doubt; but these things only occur in the mission field).

Word and Spirit said:
Why you people think the news would be interested is beyond me. They are as skeptical as you are. And Jim didn't do it for publicity.

If such healing was done publicly in front of TV cameras, people would be very interested.

Word and Spirit said:
A businessman that was a member of our church took some teaching tapes of Jack to Taiwan. The men from Taiwan scoffed at the message until they heard on part of the tape Jack praying in tongues, and they understood every word. They stopped scoffing.

These tapes have Jack speaking in Mandarin? That would certainly be checkable.

Radagast · Jul 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
In all honesty, I am open to the truth, but it has to be from the Bible.

I myself am a soft Cessationist. I'd be very, very happy to accept evidence of "sign gifts."

However, when people in this thread have given their best examples, they're still not very good.

I also have a specific Biblical concern with the idea of infallible prophecy continuing, because I believe in a closed canon.

I have a second specific Biblical concern with the idea of fallible prophecy. I see no evidence of such a thing in the NT, and Deuteronomy 18:20-22 tells us that the "prophet" who makes even one "mistake" must be immediately killed.

I have a third Biblical concern with the idea of tongues as an "ecstatic prayer language." That's not what Acts of the Apostles 2:6-11 is talking about.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

Radagast said:
I myself am a soft Cessationist. I'd be very, very happy to accept evidence of "sign gifts."

I agree with the teaching of Cessationism, but not the name, as well. While Cessationism is only referring to the cessation of the miraculous gifts, I prefer to call myself a “Partial Cessationist” because I believe the Miraculous gifts have ceased and not all gifts. I am also open to the idea of sign gifts if there was evidence for them, as well. But I need Scripture to explain away the Cessationist points or arguments that makes a lot sense to me.

You said:
However, when people in this thread have given their best examples, they're still not very good.

Agreed.

I also have a specific Biblical concern with the idea of infallible prophecy continuing, because I believe in a closed canon.

Me, too.

You said:
I have a second specific Biblical concern with the idea of fallible prophecy. I see no evidence of such a thing in the NT, and Deuteronomy 18:20-22 tells us that the "prophet" who makes even one "mistake" must be immediately killed.

Yes. I am in total agreement with you again on this one.

You said:
I have a third Biblical concern with the idea of tongues as an "ecstatic prayer language." That's not what Acts of the Apostles 2:6-11 is talking about.

I 100% agree. Paul was not talking about literal tongues of angels in 1 Corinthians 13; And in 1 Corinthians 14, Paul is recommending the proper use of tongues which would be: Public speaking in tongues alone (Which was a real foreign language) with an interpreter present. Some try to say there is a private prayer language of some unknown tongue mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14, but it is simply not there in the text.

topher694 · Jul 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, I am asking for the truth, whether you believe I will accept it or not is another matter. Don't do it for me, but do it to help somebody else who may across this website reading. That is what I don't understand by some of the reactions here.

Side Note:

In all honesty, I am open to the truth, but it has to be from the Bible. I have prayed about this and I do honestly want to see the Continuationist viewpoint. But so far, it has not convinced me yet. This is why I am asking for more. I am asking for folks to make their case with the Bible in order to convince me and or others. Mocking the idea of how putting forth a biblical case for Continuationism only makes the Continuationist view appear weak from my perspective. But I am still holding out hope for another believer to make an effort still.

Ok, so I take you at your word that you are open to the truth, and apologize if I came across as rejecting that. With that in mind I have a few sincere observations/suggestions:

First, starting from a place of "convince me of ______" probably isn't the wisest approach. Starting from such a place carries with it some presuppositions. A better starting point would be "Show me the truth". Now some may think that is a small distinction, but I think it has value. One positions the heart for truth, one positions it for argument.

Second, truth be told this is an argument that has been ongoing for centuries. It's not going to be resolved here. As I've said previously both sides often use the same scriptures, but with vastly different interpretations.

With that in mind my recommendation IS based 100% based on the Bible and is a strong evidence/proof. It's just not what most people (likely yourself included) are looking for or expect (on a side note, isn't that how God so often works?). I've articulated it in part here already. Look at the fruit. The fruit invoked/created BY the "argument" itself and the fruit produced while making the argument. That's the way Jesus said we could discern between the true and false when both seem scripturally "sound".

Skipping to the end, this is what I continually see:
Fruit invoked by cessationism: no/limited signs, wonders, miracles. A God who could help, once did help, but now doesn't. A God whose primary motive in the supernatural is not to help people but to prove Himself. The fruit it produces while arguing? Accusations. Slander. Dismisissing the testimony of others and so on.

The fruit invoked by continuationism: A God who behaves now the same as we read in the Bible. A God who still helps people in every way He can. A God proves Himself by helping people. Fruit produced: desire for others to experience the same supernatural blessing as they've received.

Granted no one is perfect when debating and we all loose our cool sometimes... but fruit is more than an instance of but rather a harvest of.

Additionally, one thing that I've learn about the Gifts of the Spirit. While they are designed to bring edification to others, a natural byproduct is that they draw you closer to God yourself when you flow in them. By their very nature, in order to operate in the Gifts God has to trust you, and you have to learn to trust Him. In short you learn to hear His voice better. Which is always a good thing.

So then my question is, what sounds more like Jesus?

Fruit really can't be argued with. If you look you'll notice that when I have talked about this previously in this thread and someone quotes me to refute something, that they completely leave out the portion of my post that talks about fruit or completely ignore it.

Finally, if you take all of this into consideration and recall the testimony I told earlier about the young man who walked into church this weekend with a notebook that contained a business plan. And how God prophesied exactly what was in the notebook, including the business name, which no one prophesying could have known. That may not be proof to others. But it is 100% proof to him. He knows what was in that notebook. He knows without a doubt I didn't read it before service. He got a personal proof, from a personal God. THAT is how God works and always has.

If you truly want me to give more scriptural backing of what I've outlined I can. But I think most people understand what I'm referring to. The foundation of it is Matthew 7 (not just a select verse, but the entire chapter) and just builds from there. But they key to it is knowing God intimately because the better you know Him the stronger relationship you have with Him the more you become like Him. And that is what Christianity is all about. And it all fits perfectly with the Gifts being in operation today.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Healing flows out of God's heart as a matter of compassion. Think the lady with the issue of blood. Jesus character and motivaton was to respond to sufferring. Notice she didnt even ask - the gift flowed period...

So to insist the gifts were only operating as a sign is frankly wrong.

Jesus told a man in Matthew 5 to offer a gift after he reconciled with his brother first. Obviously we do not offer animal sacrifices anymore. But before the cross: Animal sacrifice was still done and even endorsed by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. In other words, things can change and evolve beyond what Jesus initially taught. The thing is that we need to see the Biblical evidence of such a change. I believe we do see an explanation as to why Paul could no longer heal like he used to. The sign gifts were to confirm the Word (Mark 16:20).

In addition, the word “perfect,” and the word “mirror” is tied with another place in Scripture in 1 Corinthians 13.

“But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.” (James 1:25).

The perfect (the perfect Law of liberty - James 1:25) has come with the completion of the Bible.

“For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:” (James 1:23).

Glass here is in reference to a mirror.

10 “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” (1 Corinthians 13:10-13).

Both chapters are in reference to our behavior and it is not concerned about the afterlife. Seeing the chapters are focused on our behavior we must realize that our good behavior in the Lord can only be guided by God's Holy Word. All Scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

I do not see Jesus as being referenced as the perfect here or the the perfect being referenced to the Kingdom here within the context. The whole context is one based on behavior and we can only get that via the Word of God. Granted, I am open to seeing otherwise. But the Continuationist has to really explain this one to convince me to see their point of view.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

topher694 said:
Ok, so I take you at your word that you are open to the truth, and apologize if I came across as rejecting that. With that in mind I have a few sincere observations/suggestions:

First, starting from a place of "convince me of ______" probably isn't the wisest approach. Starting from such a place carries with it some presuppositions. A better starting point would be "Show me the truth". Now some may think that is a small distinction, but I think it has value. One positions the heart for truth, one positions it for argument.

Second, truth be told this is an argument that has been ongoing for centuries. It's not going to be resolved here. As I've said previously both sides often use the same scriptures, but with vastly different interpretations.

With that in mind my recommendation IS based 100% based on the Bible and is a strong evidence/proof. It's just not what most people (likely yourself included) are looking for or expect (on a side note, isn't that how God so often works?). I've articulated it in part here already. Look at the fruit. The fruit invoked/created BY the "argument" itself and the fruit produced while making the argument. That's the way Jesus said we could discern between the true and false when both seem scripturally "sound".

Skipping to the end, this is what I continually see:
Fruit invoked by cessationism: no/limited signs, wonders, miracles. A God who could help, once did help, but now doesn't. A God whose primary motive in the supernatural is not to help people but to prove Himself. The fruit it produces while arguing? Accusations. Slander. Dismisissing the testimony of others and so on.

The fruit invoked by continuationism: A God who behaves now the same as we read in the Bible. A God who still helps people in every way He can. A God proves Himself by helping people. Fruit produced: desire for others to experience the same supernatural blessing as they've received.

Granted no one is perfect when debating and we all loose our cool sometimes... but fruit is more than an instance of but rather a harvest of.

Additionally, one thing that I've learn about the Gifts of the Spirit. While they are designed to bring edification to others, a natural byproduct is that they draw you closer to God yourself when you flow in them. By their very nature, in order to operate in the Gifts God has to trust you, and you have to learn to trust Him. In short you learn to hear His voice better. Which is always a good thing.

So then my question is, what sounds more like Jesus?

Fruit really can't be argued with. If you look you'll notice that when I have talked about this previously in this thread and someone quotes me to refute something, that they completely leave out the portion of my post that talks about fruit or completely ignore it.

Finally, if you take all of this into consideration and recall the testimony I told earlier about the young man who walked into church this weekend with a notebook that contained a business plan. And how God prophesied exactly what was in the notebook, including the business name, which no one prophesying could have known. That may not be proof to others. But it is 100% proof to him. He knows what was in that notebook. He knows without a doubt I didn't read it before service. He got a personal proof, from a personal God. THAT is how God works and always has.

If you truly want me to give more scriptural backing of what I've outlined I can. But I think most people understand what I'm referring to. The foundation of it is Matthew 7 (not just a select verse, but the entire chapter) and just builds from there. But they key to it is knowing God intimately because the better you know Him the stronger relationship you have with Him the more you become like Him. And that is what Christianity is all about. And it all fits perfectly with the Gifts being in operation today.

What do you think of the Azusa Street Revival?

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

Guojing said:
People love to quote that Jonah passage, but I have already given you the gospel of John.

John wrote his gospel as a record of the 8 signs that Jesus performed in order for Jews to believe that he is their promised Messiah (John 20:30-31).

In that record, the signs are seen as works of God. There are at least two times the John account explains that.

John 10:
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 14
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

You have to read John in the context of John 20:30-31.

I am actually leaning more towards cessationalist, just like you. But I have that view because of my mid Acts dispensationalist background.

I believe John 20:30-31 is referring to Jesus' earthly ministry.
John 20:29 sounds like a prophetic verse to me (speaking ahead to the time that we are now in).

“Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” (John 20:29).

It sounds like Jesus is suggesting that there will be a time when when there will be those who be blessed in not seeing any confirmation of miracles in order to believe. For Thomas was seeing confirmation of Jesus' miracle with his physical senses.

Guojing · Jul 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe John 20:30-31 is referring to Jesus' earthly ministry.
John 20:29 sounds like a prophetic verse to me (speaking ahead to the time that we are now in).

“Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” (John 20:29).

It sounds like Jesus is suggesting that there will be a time when when there will be those who be blessed in not seeing any confirmation of miracles in order to believe. For Thomas was seeing confirmation of Jesus' miracle with his physical senses.

Yes I believe Jesus was suggesting that, and Paul would repeat that point in 2 Corinthians 5:7

(For we walk by faith, not by sight

For us now in the Body of Christ under the gospel of grace, we don't look for signs. We groan in our sufferings while we wait for the redemption of our bodies (Romans 8:22-23)

Convince me of Continuationism.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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