Conviction of Sin in Salvation can you help me?

[ECBBLMSTR]

It could be said that Mr. Owens may have over-emphasized or dramatized this truth. The most important thing is that you have "conviction" and assurance that you have been born again, not what you did or didn't feel prior to conversion.

Some people, when saved at a young age, aren't much aware of what we would normally call a sinful life. They may have told a few lies, stolen something etc., but the greatest sin is unbelief, as Jesus said in that John 16 passage "of sin, because they believe not on me." Paul said: "If any man love not Jesus Christ, let him be accursed." So, those are the greatest sins, right along with failure to love the Lord with all your heart, all your mind and with all your strength. The truth is that even if you had not committed one sin of commission, you would still go to hell because of your sin in Adam. Man is a sinful, self-seeking, rebellious creature. The modern church with all its feel-good-ism has greatly neglected to paint a true picture of the sinfulness of man and his heart; that is something the old preachers like Owens and Edwards didn't neglect. The thing is, don't stop there. Learn about election and the process of redemption, regeneration and sanctification... all great truths, somewhat neglected.

 

[AndrewK9]

I agree with you on that...maybe I have put a lot of emphasis on this but eternity is a big thing...I don't wanna mess anything up or get it wrong which is why I have been so on the edge of my seat with this.

 

[LilLamb219]

I agree with you on that...maybe I have put a lot of emphasis on this but eternity is a big thing...I don't wanna mess anything up or get it wrong which is why I have been so on the edge of my seat with this.

Once again you're back to looking at yourself for salvation...the salvation won by Christ for you. Stop looking to you and look to Him, knowing that "It is finished". He saves you. Your sins are forgiven. It's as simple as that. Once you look back to you, there is doubt, confusion and fear. Look to Jesus the Christ, the one who saves.

 

[LilLamb219]

Yeah but the guy said he was not truly saved until later on in his life.


Maybe it could help if I posted what I read that has made me think so much about this this was from a writing by a guy named John Owen; "conviction of sin is not merely knowledge of right and wrong; it is not an assent to Scripture’s teaching about sin. Many people read the Bible and are fully aware that the wages of sin is death, They may know that “no immoral, impure or greedy person . . . has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God” They may even agree that “the wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God” Yet, for all their knowledge, they continue to live in sin. They understand the consequences, but they’re far from being convicted of their sins"


He later went on to say that true conviction was to feel shear dread and loathsomeness over one's sinfulness. I think he might mean people who claim to have in their head knowledge of sin but still practice and live in sin anyway, but that's what I read that made me begin thinking this way..

You're putting a lot of trust in what other men are saying instead of what God has told you about salvation from the scriptures.

 

[AndrewK9]

You're putting a lot of trust in what other men are saying instead of what God has told you about salvation from the scriptures.

I'm not trying to trust what other men are saying, it's just hard for me to understand, if it's true that someone can assent to what the bible says about sin and not be under conviction then where does the difference lie? That's where the confusion I have comes from...yes I know Jesus died to purchase my salvation with his blood...he died for the ungodly, the fallen, like me. I trust him to save me...but I keep getting very distressed over what I read.

 

[motherprayer]

I'm not trying to trust what other men are saying, it's just hard for me to understand, if it's true that someone can assent to what the bible says about sin and not be under conviction then where does the difference lie? That's where the confusion I have comes from...yes I know Jesus died to purchase my salvation with his blood...he died for the ungodly, the fallen, like me. I trust him to save me...but I keep getting very distressed over what I read.

Try comparing what you read with what the Bible says. I have found that doing that helps me a lot when I read things I can't figure out.

 

[LilLamb219]

I'm not trying to trust what other men are saying, it's just hard for me to understand, if it's true that someone can assent to what the bible says about sin and not be under conviction then where does the difference lie? That's where the confusion I have comes from...yes I know Jesus died to purchase my salvation with his blood...he died for the ungodly, the fallen, like me. I trust him to save me...but I keep getting very distressed over what I read.

If you do assent to what the bible says about sin, you ARE convicted. So why are you continuing to question it over and over again?

 

[AndrewK9]

If you do assent to what the bible says about sin, you ARE convicted. So why are you continuing to question it over and over again?

Because I read that quote and hear other people's personal testimonies and thus it has caused me go into very deep self examination of my own conversion experience.

 

[LilLamb219]

Because I read that quote and hear other people's personal testimonies and thus it has caused me go into very deep self examination of my own conversion experience.

I don't understand why this is causing so many problems for you though. You said something about making sure "you" have done it right. But therein lies the fault of your thinking...it's not YOU who does anything for salvation. Your conversion is 100% our triune God's doing. So, why are you looking at you?

 

[AndrewK9]

I don't understand why this is causing so many problems for you though. You said something about making sure "you" have done it right. But therein lies the fault of your thinking...it's not YOU who does anything for salvation. Your conversion is 100% our triune God's doing. So, why are you looking at you?

I guess I have always been this way. I am a natural worrier. I have the tendency to hear what someone says and then I go off and assume the worst...salvation is entirely of God, but my doubts are rooted almost entirely in how my salvation happened (i.e-if it lines up with someone else's experience).

 

[Harry3142]

AndrewK9-

If you were drowning and someone threw you a life preserver so that he could pull you to shore, would you debate the seriousness of drowning before grabbing that life preserver? No, you would not. Instead, you would grab it, permit the person who threw it to you to pull you to shore, and then look back on where you had been when you received the life preserver as a part of your past history.

God has thrown all of us a life preserver, and his name is Jesus Christ. It's not up to us to 'beat ourselves up' over the sins we've committed; it's up to us to hang on tight to Jesus Christ as our rescue:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

If our getting to heaven depended on our being 'good enough', it would be one empty place. All of us have sinned, and will sin in the future, and absolute perfection is what is required to obtain eternal life. That's why we need God's grace rather than his judgement, and he willingly gives us the righteousness we need through his grace in return for our accepting as salvific what he himself has already accomplished for us.

Personally, if I were in a church whose heirarchy insisted that we must continually 'beat ourselves up' for our sinfulness, I would promptly leave that church. And the reason for that is due to my having seen this tactic used. When it was used, the purpose was to cause the laity to hate themselves so much for their sins that they were willing to do whatever the leadership of that church demanded of them in order to assuage some of the guilt. It's a manipulative device, and once you recognize it as such you will feel better.

God bless-

 

[AndrewK9]

AndrewK9-

If you were drowning and someone threw you a life preserver so that he could pull you to shore, would you debate the seriousness of drowning before grabbing that life preserver? No, you would not. Instead, you would grab it, permit the person who threw it to you to pull you to shore, and then look back on where you had been when you received the life preserver as a part of your past history.

God has thrown all of us a life preserver, and his name is Jesus Christ. It's not up to us to 'beat ourselves up' over the sins we've committed; it's up to us to hang on tight to Jesus Christ as our rescue:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

If our getting to heaven depended on our being 'good enough', it would be one empty place. All of us have sinned, and will sin in the future, and absolute perfection is what is required to obtain eternal life. That's why we need God's grace rather than his judgement, and he willingly gives us the righteousness we need through his grace in return for our accepting as salvific what he himself has already accomplished for us.

Personally, if I were in a church whose heirarchy insisted that we must continually 'beat ourselves up' for our sinfulness, I would promptly leave that church. And the reason for that is due to my having seen this tactic used. When it was used, the purpose was to cause the laity to hate themselves so much for their sins that they were willing to do whatever the leadership of that church demanded of them in order to assuage some of the guilt. It's a manipulative device, and once you recognize it as such you will feel better.

God bless-

It wasn't a church that made me think this way, it was a few writings (I have it posted a couple of pages back) which I read that drove me to think well, if you can look at a verse that says you're a sinner, and that the wages of sin is death, accept is as truth and still not be under conviction, then how do you discern if you are, then it would become a particular emotion the things I had been reading I either took out of context or am overreacting to...after all this here today and some personal praying I've been doing I see the error is that I have partially been trusting in my sense of need rather than the one who the Holy Spirit testifies of and has the power to meet my need, JESUS.

 

[joey_downunder]

Passage came to my mind when reading your concerns : Colossians 2:6-15

Especially this verse: See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. (Colossians 2:8)

It has become a tradition among many Christians to analyse how intense the experience was during a Christian's before-and-after transition from unbelief to faith in Christ is. Therefore they assume "no extreme feelings, no faith". WRONG.

Look at Saul's experience in Acts chapter 9. Where are the tears and wailing and beating of his breast? Do you doubt his conversion?
This man is the apostle Paul (previously known as Saul) - the man responsible for 13 books in the New Testament.

Jesus' words outrank ordinary Christians', no matter how highly esteemed or famous they are.

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. (Matthew 7:15-20)

Fruits often come way after the conversion experience. An intense experience of conviction of sin - the need for Jesus as saviour - is a good first sign of spiritual life. The all-important sign is this one from Romans chapter 10 though:
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” (Romans 10:9-11)

Nothing about volume of tears or ecstatic experiences being essential signs of salvation. Hope that helps.

 

[joey_downunder]

Just found a personal testimony that shows why it is so important to ensure our faith is in Jesus himself not ourselves in any aspect e.g. degree of conviction of sin, feelings, our own holiness etc. Holiness - the False and the True, by Dr. Harry Ironside

 

[AndrewK9]

Thanks...it's just that I have looked at these writings, and other people's conversion experiences and see well this person was miserable and so deeply convicted they were crying on their face for salvation and when I look or hear that it makes me think, was something in my conversion lacking?

I had seen my state that I am sinful enough to need saving and cleansing and a desire to not want to do those things, and that's only found in Christ.
It's that well then how do I know it was not all in my head, how do I know it was in my heart I believed? Where does it end? So it then becomes some sort of psychoanalysis of myself, how I felt etc.

 

[joey_downunder]

Have you considered that people's testimony styles also is affected by their actual personality?

Some people are way more eloquent, or more in touch with their feelings, or expressive over all! "Thinking personality" Christians' faith is just as real and valid as "feeling personality" Christians. Would you say you "think" more than "feel" overall?

 

[AndrewK9]

Have you considered that people's testimony styles also is affected by their actual personality?

Some people are way more eloquent, or more in touch with their feelings, or expressive over all! "Thinking personality" Christians' faith is just as real and valid as "feeling personality" Christians. Would you say you "think" more than "feel" overall?

How do you mean?
I don't think I exactly understand the question...?

 

[joey_downunder]

Thinking personality = think through things carefully, analyse things, make decisions on facts and logic. Tend to be better at maths, science, business etc.

feeling personality = make decisions on "what feels right" and impressions, in touch with what they are feeling and what others are as well. Tend to be better with art, writing and people.

Thinking personality Christians seem to be very good at analysing and dissecting scripture. Feeling personality Christians seem to be very in touch with what God has done to them and what they have experienced through faith in Jesus.

Two sides of one coin in a way. Problem is:
1.modern books/testimonies are overwhelmingly written for "feeling personality" Christians
2. Christians who don't feel any major difference pre-salvation and post-salvation compare themselves with other Christians who have felt so much change and feel "fake" or "inadequate".

I have had quite a few conversations with people who struggle with this issue now.

 

[AndrewK9]

Thinking personality = think through things carefully, analyse things, make decisions on facts and logic. Tend to be better at maths, science, business etc.

feeling personality = make decisions on "what feels right" and impressions, in touch with what they are feeling and what others are as well. Tend to be better with art, writing and people.

Thinking personality Christians seem to be very good at analysing and dissecting scripture. Feeling personality Christians seem to be very in touch with what God has done to them and what they have experienced through faith in Jesus.

Two sides of one coin in a way. Problem is:
1.modern books/testimonies are overwhelmingly written for "feeling personality" Christians
2. Christians who don't feel any major difference pre-salvation and post-salvation compare themselves with other Christians who have felt so much change and feel "fake" or "inadequate".

I have had quite a few conversations with people who struggle with this issue now.

Maybe then I would say that I have a bit of both. It's just that I see that well 'well can you come to a real understanding of something, without it effecting your emotions?'

As far as change goes, Indeed I have a desire to not want to be the same. I don't want to be living in sin, because that's what separated me from God in the first place. Though I see that repentant part of me as evidence the Holy Spirit was active at my conversion. I came to Jesus to get forgiveness and salvation, as a sinner.

 

[joey_downunder]

I found this on another message board quite a while back (I can't claim credit ).

A true Christian will :

* seek to walk in the light, acknowledge they are a sinner, ask the Lord for forgiveness, turn from their sin (1 John 1:5-9)
* keep His commandments (1 John 2:1-6)
* love his brother (1 John 2:7-14)
* hate the world (1 John 2:15-17)
* stay with their church [circumstances permitting] (1 John 2:19)
* say Jesus is THE Christ (1 John 2:22-23)
* practice righteousness (1 John 2:29)
* no longer abide in sin (1 John 3:4-10)
* love their brothers (1 John 3:11-15)
* confess Jesus came in the flesh (1 John 4:1-3)
* listen to us [i.e.apostles/bible/church] NOT the world (1 John 4:4-6)
* love others because God is love (1 John 4:7-12)
* have spiritual life through faith in Christ (1 John 5:10-12)
* keep themselves from idols (1 John 5:21)

My comment now:
A true child of God will show those characteristics. Some may take some time to show up. If someone who claims to be Christian does not start to follow that pattern then serious questions should be asked.

e.g. "no longer abide in sin".
It has taken me a long time to break certain patterns of sins that I made LOTS of excuses for before I was saved. The desire to break free of that sin began when I was saved though.