Convertitis Revisited

[MariaRegina]

In polls taken in both OBOB and in TAW,


1. Most of the people in OBOB are Protestant converts to Catholicism.


2. Most of the people in TAW are Protestant converts with a few Catholic converts to Orthodoxy.


DO YOU KNOW THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS?

Converts to the faith tend to bring garbage with them .... they tend to see errors in their newly adopted church and have a deep desire to correct those flaws.

It may be that we want the Liturgy in English. Or that we miss the organ. Or that we feel that the Lenten fast is too much.

Other converts are too zealous and they want everybody in the Church to start fasting strictly. So they go to the other extreme and become very rigid in their faith.

These aberrations are all part of convertitis.

And we as converts (or reverts for those who have come back to the faith) seriously need to make sure that we do not have a hidden agenda to improve the Church and to make the Church in our own personal likeness.

We should try to be humble and to cooperate with the grace of God so that we are transformed into other Christs by theosis.

In other words, we have to become grafted onto the Church, not the Church onto us. We are only branches. The Church is the Tree of Life.

p.s. I honestly feel that this is the underlying problem we are all experiencing in CF. We have only a few solid Christians who are mods and users. Most of us are newbies in our faith, and so we argue with one another. Maybe this is why priests and deacons also avoid us. We are too proud and arrogant, but don't know it because we are so naive.

I wonder how many Protestants are actually converts from atheism or agnosticism or other cults or Eastern religions?

 

[drewmeister2]

I think you have a good point. This happens with Catholics as well. I know even me, sometimes, I get caught up in the lack of love, when I think about wanting to reform the RCC, even though Im not a convert.

I like your quote from St. Thomas Aquinas in your other post about love

Thanks for these thoughts!

 

[Franze]

Converts are many times better than catholics or orthodox raised. God bless you.

 

[Photini]

It may be that we want the Liturgy in English.

What is the significance of the fact that many of the Orthodox here are converts? I think the significance is that Orthodoxy is growing and touching people's lives in America. SURE, there are issues we bring with us. But I DO NOT think that wanting the Liturgy in English is "garbage" that we bring with us. It is normal to want to worship in your native tongue. I should NOT have to learn another language to worship Christ. When I first converted, I LOVED Greek and wanted to learn it (I did memorize the Liturgy in Greek, and understand most of what is said). The thought of changing it to English annoyed me. But NOW, I see the importance of having the Liturgy in the native language. My family would have been much more responsive toward Orthodoxy if they could understand what in the world was being said during their visits to my church. THe last time I checked, English is still the native language of the United States.

 

[MariaRegina]

I read an article in Again Magazine of how the author traveled a considerable distance to avoid the ethnic parish that was close by. She realized that God had placed her within reasonable distance to that ethnic parish and that she was avoiding it for personal reasons, prejudices of her own making, garbage carried from her previous years.

When she visited that parish, she found a wealth of spirituality, a true gem, even though the Liturgy was only about 50% in English.

***

When I grew up everything was in Latin except the sermon and the readings from the Holy Scripture. I went out of my way as a child to learn as much Latin as I could ... I still remember it to this day.

Introibo ad altare Dei. - I will go to the altar of God.

And when I see the priest swinging the censor, my heart thrills and mentally I say again:

Introibo ad altare Dei.

 

[Photini]

I absolutely agree that language should not be a reason to avoid the Liturgy, or be allowed to be a hindrance to worship. HOWEVER, I do not think it's fair to say that Americans wishing for the Liturgy to be in English, is garbage. That is not an attempt to "fix" the Church.

 

[gzt]

Ja, and I think this is a subset of the problem of religiosity. That is, rather than seeing the Church as the new life in Christ here and now, with the Eucharist referring everything to Christ and His Kingdom, everything is reduced to personal sanctification, personal piety, rubrical exactitude, etc.

 

[MariaRegina]

Ja, and I think this is a subset of the problem of religiosity. That is, rather than seeing the Church as the new life in Christ here and now, with the Eucharist referring everything to Christ and His Kingdom, everything is reduced to personal sanctification, personal piety, rubrical exactitude, etc.

Exactly.

We have to look at the bigger picture.

Sure, our children may not understand the liturgy when it is offered in Greek or Slavonic, but I grew up in a total Latin Church. However with the religious education I received, thanks to my parents, I grew in the Lord.

We cannot depend on the Church to educate our children, we must educate them ourselves. Our children are educated in the faith by living it daily.

[1] Morning prayers before breakfast
[2] Blessing sung before meals
[3] Doxology after meals
[4] Kissing the Icon before leaving the house for school
[5] Teaching the children to pray before doing school assignments and tests - so that the Jesus prayer becomes natural to them throughout the day.
[6] Arriving home and kissing the icon again as they come into the house.
[7] Prayers before the mid day snack
[8] Prayers before doing their homework assignments (before doing any task)
[9] Prayers of thanksgiving after doing homework and before playing outside
[10] Prayers before dinner
[11] Doxology after dinner
[12] Scripture and/or spiritual reading before bed
[13] Compline prayed with the whole family gathered.
[14] Falling asleep with the Jesus prayer on their lips.

 

[Matrona]

What is the significance of the fact that many of the Orthodox here are converts? I think the significance is that Orthodoxy is growing and touching people's lives in America. SURE, there are issues we bring with us. But I DO NOT think that wanting the Liturgy in English is "garbage" that we bring with us. It is normal to want to worship in your native tongue. I should NOT have to learn another language to worship Christ. When I first converted, I LOVED Greek and wanted to learn it (I did memorize the Liturgy in Greek, and understand most of what is said). The thought of changing it to English annoyed me. But NOW, I see the importance of having the Liturgy in the native language. My family would have been much more responsive toward Orthodoxy if they could understand what in the world was being said during their visits to my church. THe last time I checked, English is still the native language of the United States.

I also think wanting Liturgy in the vernacular is perfectly acceptable. My parish is all convert, all English, so I have no problem understanding the liturgy, and the parish is so tiny that I can even hear some of the "secret" prayers. But when I go down to the Greek church, I get lost in the Greek part, it seems that there's a slight difference in the rubrics (they pass the collection plate and have the homily just before communion, which annoys me) and I get lost no matter what.

(But they do some things I like very much, like pass out a worship guide with communion guidelines, and they have someone guarding the exit at communion so people can't dash out after they've received. )

 

[Shubunkin]

I was hoping a conversion would change me, ... and not me placing my will onto the church. I am trying to learn, but have to admit wondering what would be wrong with the liturgy being in English? Doesn't it mean the same thing? I would accept whatever the church gives, though.

 

[MariaRegina]

One priest told me that we will struggle against our will until the day we die.

That is why monastics highly value obedience, because it is the death of our own wills in everything.

Hence, monasticism is called a slow martyrdom.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

(they pass the collection plate and have the homily just before communion, which annoys me)

You mean literally just before communion or at the end of the Liturgy of the Catechumens? Historically the sermon was given after the Epistle and Gospel, then the catechumens are prayed for and dismissed. Then begins the Liturgy of the Faithful, which includes the Creed (the doors! the doors!), the Lord's Prayer and Communion which non-Christians and penitents were not allowed to see or hear let alone participate in.

(But they do some things I like very much, like pass out a worship guide with communion guidelines, and they have someone guarding the exit at communion so people can't dash out after they've received. )

M.

 

[gzt]

Charitina: You have a healthy attitude towards this, but some people get bent out of shape, drive for hours or don't go to Church because of the language the liturgy is in, agitate constantly for it, etc. It becomes a crusade.

 

[Matrona]

You mean literally just before communion or at the end of the Liturgy of the Catechumens? Historically the sermon was given after the Epistle and Gospel, then the catechumens are prayed for and dismissed. Then begins the Liturgy of the Faithful, which includes the Creed (the doors! the doors!), the Lord's Prayer and Communion which non-Christians and penitents were not allowed to see or hear let alone participate in.

I mean literally just before communion.

The part just after we sing the communion hymn, where Father would prepare things and then come out with the chalice at my parish, the Greek church's priest comes out without the chalice and gives the homily for about 20 minutes and the collection is taken up. Then he goes back to the altar, gets the chalice with the napkin and spoon, and says "With the fear of God...", etc.

I don't like it, because the collection being made right then feels like paying for communion. Not to mention it's the second time they've shaken us down, after the candle box. Also, having the liturgy build up towards communion, and then everyone sits down and lazes about in the pews for 20 minutes, and then we receive, is SO anti-climactic!

At my parish Father gives the homily between the Gospel reading and the Catechumens/Cherubic Hymn, we don't take up an offering, and communion isn't forestalled for anything.

 

[MariaRegina]

Charitina: You have a healthy attitude towards this, but some people get bent out of shape, drive for hours or don't go to Church because of the language the liturgy is in, agitate constantly for it, etc. It becomes a crusade.

Even cradle Orthodox are guilty of having an agenda, like the members of the OCL - Orthodox Christian Laity.

 

[gzt]

Oh yeah. And they're often just as guilty of the language thing, but in reverse.

 

[Knee V]

My 2 cents: if the Liturgy was never done in anything but THE ORIGINAL tongue, or whatever, then everyone would be doing it in Hebrew/Aramaic, since the first christians were Jews in Palestine. The reason that there are Greek Liturgies is because the liturgy was done in the vernacular. There is a liturgy in Slovanic because the liturgy was changed to be done in the vernacular. And that is true for any language. There is no "mother tongue" or anything like that. English is a perfectly valid language of the world. What if no one bothered to translate things into Arabic, or Greek, or Slovanic, etc. Then EVERYONE would be learning a new language in order to worship.

 

[Melethiel]

I've got the opposite problem re. language. I'm avoiding visiting an Orthodox church until I can go to an ethnic one, just because I dislike chanting in English.

 

[Matrona]

My 2 cents: if the Liturgy was never done in anything but THE ORIGINAL tongue, or whatever, then everyone would be doing it in Hebrew/Aramaic, since the first christians were Jews in Palestine. The reason that there are Greek Liturgies is because the liturgy was done in the vernacular. There is a liturgy in Slovanic because the liturgy was changed to be done in the vernacular. And that is true for any language. There is no "mother tongue" or anything like that. English is a perfectly valid language of the world. What if no one bothered to translate things into Arabic, or Greek, or Slovanic, etc. Then EVERYONE would be learning a new language in order to worship.

I agree. I don't buy this "sacred language" thing that seems to have hit conservative RC's. I agree with those conservatives on a few things but this is not one of them.

Those poor conservatives should all become Western Rite Orthodox. We aren't the only church that allows celebration of the Tridentine mass, but we are the only place where they'd be considered liberals for using it!

 

[RobNJ]

Were there complaints, back when the Russian peoples had the audacity to start doing the Divine Liturgy in their mother tongue, back when the calendar was still in the triple digits?