Converting to Catholicism

[mark kennedy]

I don't know if this is likely for me but I'm seriously interested. I've looked into it a couple of times but I'm struggling with some issues. I know about Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA) and I would be willing to take those classes even if I didn't actually decide to convert. I'm profoundly disturbed by what I've seen in the Protestant churches and have some serious issues with the Orthodox tradition. I'm not here to bash Protestants and Orthodox but I'm very interested in exploring this possibility, I like the traditions and catechism.

I was at one time big on justification by faith, only to find out it's what Christians have uniformly believed since the time of the Apostles. What is different is a single word, alone, which I think creates an unnatural separation between justification and sanctification. I'm serious about this and it's not the first time I've looked into it. Just curious what kind of advice I would get here.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Markie Boy]

Well, I'd say you are on the right track. It's pretty much where I have been. Protestantism is not what Christianity was for centuries, and enough study and you come to either Catholic or Orthodox.

I went thru RCIA and joined the CC a few years ago, but knew nothing of Orthodoxy at the time. Can I ask what about Orthodoxy puts you off? I ask because after entering the CC, I am disturbed by enough stuff that I have been learning more about Orthodoxy.

Either one is a better choice than protestantism I believe.

 

[mark kennedy]

Well, I'd say you are on the right track. It's pretty much where I have been. Protestantism is not what Christianity was for centuries, and enough study and you come to either Catholic or Orthodox.

I went thru RCIA and joined the CC a few years ago, but knew nothing of Orthodoxy at the time. Can I ask what about Orthodoxy puts you off? I ask because after entering the CC, I am disturbed by enough stuff that I have been learning more about Orthodoxy.

Either one is a better choice than protestantism I believe.

I really don't know how to track their tradition for one thing and the writings of the eastern church fathers just loses me. Their rituals seem rather odd and I'm not really adverse to it, just think the guy walking around with incense is kind of pointless. I've talked to Catholics and they seem pretty lucid, what I really like is they are rooted and grounded in a tradition that isn't subject to change. The Orthodox I can never really put my finger on what they are talking about, like I say, it just loses me.

I've been browsing the Catechism, still haven't found anything I have a problem with. Protestantism on the other hand seems like it's having a meltdown, their work in exegetical studies and their great revivals are a credit to their history but it's waning. Those seminaries are turning into liberal arts and they seem disinterested in Pastoral ministry. Trying to get to the bottom of their theology is like chasing ghosts in the fog.

Look I really don't have a problem with the Orthodox churches, not really. It's just I don't think I can understand what it is their message and ministry is. Catholicism looks a lot more tenable.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Markie Boy]

Fair enough - I'd say Catholicism adapted to modern America more, so it's more palatable in some ways. But it's also changed more than Orthodoxy. The incense they use, used to be used a lot in Catholicism, but now it's gone most.

Catholicism is fighting the battle of liberalism as well. Once inside, I found it to be widely varying. The Charismatic movement has introduced protestantism in to Catholicism, and I am working with Catholics that buy in to stuff that would have never flown pre-1960, but today priests and bishops encourage it.

Orthodoxy can be hard to nail down what they actually believe, as they are not totally united, and I have to give the nod to Catholicism there. But I also have to say some of the being united is more on paper and in theory than reality. Not to scare you off - but possibly help you avoid the shock I'm working through, and wondering if I can stay.

I live in a diocese that won't allow traditional Latin Mass, but will allow Charismatic Slain in the Spirit services and speaking in tongues outside of Biblical guidelines. I can't believe I just typed that after reading it - what have things come to?

 

[mark kennedy]

Fair enough - I'd say Catholicism adapted to modern America more, so it's more palatable in some ways. But it's also changed more than Orthodoxy. The incense they use, used to be used a lot in Catholicism, but now it's gone most.

It just seems like a pointless ritual, they walk around with this thing and then walk behind a partition. I know incense symbolizes prayer but it just does nothing for me. At least a liturgy that comes with a message explains the point.

Catholicism is fighting the battle of liberalism as well. Once inside, I found it to be widely varying. The Charismatic movement has introduced protestantism in to Catholicism, and I am working with Catholics that buy in to stuff that would have never flown pre-1960, but today priests and bishops encourage it.

I don't think what Charismatics are doing is New Testament tongues, but strangely, Pentecostals and Charismatics are New Testament believers. I think Catholics tolerate them and I've been told, even blessed them with some reservations. It seems to me it's an alternative mode of worship, little more.

Orthodoxy can be hard to nail down what they actually believe, as they are not totally united, and I have to give the nod to Catholicism there. But I also have to say some of the being united is more on paper and in theory than reality. Not to scare you off - but possibly help you avoid the shock I'm working through, and wondering if I can stay.

I've been looking at Aquinas, Error of the Greeks, and frankly, it's odd. It sounds like they were weak on Pelagianism and had some very strange ideas about the Trinity.

I live in a diocese that won't allow traditional Latin Mass, but will allow Charismatic Slain in the Spirit services and speaking in tongues outside of Biblical guidelines. I can't believe I just typed that after reading it - what have things come to?

It sounds like they are trying to be patient and tolerant, I wouldn't let it trouble you. From everything I'm getting just browsing around, Rome has been pretty tolerant of this kind of thing.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I don't know if this is likely for me but I'm seriously interested. I've looked into it a couple of times but I'm struggling with some issues. I know about Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA) and I would be willing to take those classes even if I didn't actually decide to convert. I'm profoundly disturbed by what I've seen in the Protestant churches and have some serious issues with the Orthodox tradition. I'm not here to bash Protestants and Orthodox but I'm very interested in exploring this possibility, I like the traditions and catechism.

I was at one time big on justification by faith, only to find out it's what Christians have uniformly believed since the time of the Apostles. What is different is a single word, alone, which I think creates an unnatural separation between justification and sanctification. I'm serious about this and it's not the first time I've looked into it. Just curious what kind of advice I would get here.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I thought you were at least 3/4 the way there already. I have many thoughts of what to say but zero time right now. I do think it's a good move for you and for anybody and everybody, but there will obviously be challenges ... and rewards. More tomorrow.

 

[mark kennedy]

I thought you were at least 3/4 the way there already. I have many thoughts of what to say but zero time right now. I do think it's a good move for you and for anybody and everybody, but there will obviously be challenges ... and rewards. More tomorrow.

Thanks for that, I'm going to take my time with this so no rush. I still haven't contacted a Parish but I'm thinking why not. What's the worst thing that could happen, I might learn something and still decide against it. I'm just so tired of Protestantism and I don't think the Orthodox churches have much to offer me.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Theodoric]

I'm just so tired of Protestantism and I don't think the Orthodox churches have much to offer me.
Mark

Protestantism isn't a "thing" to be tired of, really. It's a pretty large umbrella that covers a wide range of traditions and styles of worship. Some good, some not so good.

I'm pretty sure you could find a body of believers within that general heading that satisfied what you're looking for.

As to converting to Catholicism, the reason to do that, and the only good reason to do it, is if you find yourself in agreement with Catholic doctrine and practice. Not because you're "tired" of Protestantism as practiced by your local church.

I'm not going to criticize specific Catholic teachings on a Catholic forum, but do look carefully into that. Take some classes, speak with priests. Many of them are very open to having those kinds of discussions.

But this isn't something you should just jump into because you don't like the color of the drapes at the local Community Church.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't know if this is likely for me but I'm seriously interested. I've looked into it a couple of times but I'm struggling with some issues. I know about Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA) and I would be willing to take those classes even if I didn't actually decide to convert. I'm profoundly disturbed by what I've seen in the Protestant churches and have some serious issues with the Orthodox tradition. I'm not here to bash Protestants and Orthodox but I'm very interested in exploring this possibility, I like the traditions and catechism.

I was at one time big on justification by faith, only to find out it's what Christians have uniformly believed since the time of the Apostles. What is different is a single word, alone, which I think creates an unnatural separation between justification and sanctification. I'm serious about this and it's not the first time I've looked into it. Just curious what kind of advice I would get here.

Grace and peace,
Mark

You could just be 'catholic' in the earliest, more philosophically simple sense of the word. I am. And I'm not Roman Catholic, but as I do with all the other denominations, I can learn some things from my brothers and sisters in the Roman Catholic brand name label. I really don't see why everyone is so gung-ho on having some decisive identity and firm affiliation with a label ... Why isn't it enough just to be a Trinitarian "Christian"?

But, to each his (or her) own, to some extent.

 

[Theodoric]

You could just be 'catholic' in the earliest, more philosophically simple sense of the word. I am. And I'm not Roman Catholic, but as I do with all the other denominations, I can learn some things from my brothers and sisters in the Roman Catholic brand name label. I really don't see why everyone is so gung-ho on having some decisive identity and firm affiliation with a label ... Why isn't it enough just to be a Trinitarian "Christian"?

But, to each his (or her) own, to some extent.

Well, brother, what you just said makes you a protestant by definition. Catholics would, I'm sure, take strong exception to being called a "denomination".

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well, brother, what you just said makes you a protestant by definition. Catholics would, I'm sure, take strong exception to being called a "denomination".

Sure, you're right. From a Roman Catholic point of view, I might be considered a 'Protestant.' But, then I'll open my mouth going the other way and say that I don't believe in Sola Scriptura, but rather in Prima Scriptura, leaving some room for various articulations on "Church Tradition," which would put me at odds with some (if not many) of my fellow Christians on the Protestant side.

Since you're new, I'll just add in that I take a more Generalized, Quasi-Ecumenical, and philosophical approach to OUR Trinitarian Christian faith.

 

[mark kennedy]

Protestantism isn't a "thing" to be tired of, really. It's a pretty large umbrella that covers a wide range of traditions and styles of worship. Some good, some not so good.

I'm pretty sure you could find a body of believers within that general heading that satisfied what you're looking for.

As to converting to Catholicism, the reason to do that, and the only good reason to do it, is if you find yourself in agreement with Catholic doctrine and practice. Not because you're "tired" of Protestantism as practiced by your local church.

I'm not going to criticize specific Catholic teachings on a Catholic forum, but do look carefully into that. Take some classes, speak with priests. Many of them are very open to having those kinds of discussions.

But this isn't something you should just jump into because you don't like the color of the drapes at the local Community Church.

I hear you, of course I realize it's not a simple matter. My problem isn't their drapes but the drift into theological compromise, they don't seem to have the patience or presence of mind for doctrine. My time in Bible college was troubling, I'm just feed up with textual criticism and an obsession with apparent contradictions. The ordination of women and a growing acceptance of same sex unions concerns me greatly and Rome's stand on abortion I think is one hundred percent consistent with traditional Christian theism.

I'm not entering into this lightly, I realize I need to know more about the Catholic church and what converting actually means. I'm just looking for consistency and that is sorely lacking in Protestant traditions, perhaps not historically, but now.

Appreciate your input.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

You could just be 'catholic' in the earliest, more philosophically simple sense of the word. I am. And I'm not Roman Catholic, but as I do with all the other denominations, I can learn some things from my brothers and sisters in the Roman Catholic brand name label. I really don't see why everyone is so gung-ho on having some decisive identity and firm affiliation with a label ... Why isn't it enough just to be a Trinitarian "Christian"?

But, to each his (or her) own, to some extent.

I'm not sure what that means but I'm talking about conversion here. Apparently it takes some time and there are some classes, I really don't know how long it takes but I'm expecting at least a year. I've always mulled the idea over and occasionally taken it seriously, now I think I'm ready to actually start in the direction. I don't actually know where this road leads but I've been reading the catechism, some Catholic writings and starting to think this is the way to go.

All I can tell you for sure is I have a sense of peace about this, I want the moorings of theological stability and tradition. I don't really see that anywhere else.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Theodoric]

I hear you, of course I realize it's not a simple matter. My problem isn't their drapes but the drift into theological compromise, they don't seem to have the patience or presence of mind for doctrine. My time in Bible college was troubling, I'm just feed up with textual criticism and an obsession with apparent contradictions. The ordination of women and a growing acceptance of same sex unions concerns me greatly and Rome's stand on abortion I think is one hundred percent consistent with traditional Christian theism.

I'm not entering into this lightly, I realize I need to know more about the Catholic church and what converting actually means. I'm just looking for consistency and that is sorely lacking in Protestant traditions, perhaps not historically, but now.

Appreciate your input.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I understand what you're saying, my comment about the drapes was kind of flippant and just my writing style, I didn't mean to suggest you weren't being thoughtful or serious.

It does seem to me that your concerns are more denomination-specific than they are indictments of Protestantism in general. For example, my home denomination is not ordaining women and is staunchly against abortion. Nor do we condone same-sex unions.

I think that American Protestantism generally has issues with being the Laodiceans from Revelation 3 ("because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue you out of my mouth") but from my experience so do quite a few individual American Catholics. It's an American problem, not a protestant one.

But speaking more to the point, what are your views on things like transubstantiation, the immaculate conception of Mary, and the infallibility of the Pope speaking 'ex Cathedra'? That's why you should or should not become a Catholic, not because you were burned by a couple of liberal professors at bible college.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

Hey Mark. That's awesome that you are looking into Catholicism and it sounds like you are well on your way. Having a catechism is a fantastic way of learning what we believe. Catholicism certainly has people who disagree and people who agree. We have churches that are more liberal and some that are more conservative. However, one thing that binds all of us together is the dogma and teachings that are infallible and unchangeable. We do not waffle and waver with the world like the +30,000.00 protestant denominations do.

I wouldn't listen to the protestants who frequent this board and attempt to stop people from converting. You seem like a guy who is already in discernment anyway so I doubt you will let them sway your opinion. I would recommend joining an RCIA class and speaking with a priest. Yes, we have some views that are different from the protestants. Such as the immaculate conception of Mary. We also believe the pope is infallible when speaking on matters of faith. Not a hard stretch to believe that the Holy Spirit still guides the Church in these matters.

You will find a rich and plentiful tradition here. Joining the Church that the Apostles started is a great thing. If you have any questions feel free to ask here of course. However, remember this is the internet lol!

 

[mark kennedy]

I understand what you're saying, my comment about the drapes was kind of flippant and just my writing style, I didn't mean to suggest you weren't being thoughtful or serious.

It does seem to me that your concerns are more denomination-specific than they are indictments of Protestantism in general. For example, my home denomination is not ordaining women and is staunchly against abortion. Nor do we condone same-sex unions.

I think that American Protestantism generally has issues with being the Laodiceans from Revelation 3 ("because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue you out of my mouth") but from my experience so do quite a few individual American Catholics. It's an American problem, not a protestant one.

But speaking more to the point, what are your views on things like transubstantiation, the immaculate conception of Mary, and the infallibility of the Pope speaking 'ex Cathedra'? That's why you should or should not become a Catholic, not because you were burned by a couple of liberal professors at bible college.

Your covering a lot of ground with your questions, I'll do what I can here. I'm not sure what immaculate conception means, the Lord was and is God incarnate, nothing changes that. I will admit I struggle with devotions to Mary but I'm at least willing to keep an open mind. So I say a few hail Marys without being sure if she can hear it, I don't know, doesn't Rome leave room for doubting? At least for a layman you get a little wiggle room.

The Pope speaking 'ex Cathedra', I really haven't been exposed to enough of those to tell you whether or not I might have a problem. I remember the words of Luther shouting I cannot hold to the word of Popes and Councils because they contradict one another. I don't know, do they?

It's not what happened in school that bothered me, I learned a lot and loved those people. It's the traditions of Rome that are drawing me, I realize Popes speak to issues not addressed in Scripture, that sounds Pastoral to me. I liked John Paul and the two Pope that followed him and never really seen anything in their ministry that I object to.

I've been looking into Catholic doctrine and theology and I like what I see. Modernism is only part of my problem, I think the Protestant churches are losing their moorings.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[archer75]

I really don't know how to track their tradition for one thing and the writings of the eastern church fathers just loses me. Their rituals seem rather odd and I'm not really adverse to it, just think the guy walking around with incense is kind of pointless. I've talked to Catholics and they seem pretty lucid, what I really like is they are rooted and grounded in a tradition that isn't subject to change. The Orthodox I can never really put my finger on what they are talking about, like I say, it just loses me.

I've been browsing the Catechism, still haven't found anything I have a problem with. Protestantism on the other hand seems like it's having a meltdown, their work in exegetical studies and their great revivals are a credit to their history but it's waning. Those seminaries are turning into liberal arts and they seem disinterested in Pastoral ministry. Trying to get to the bottom of their theology is like chasing ghosts in the fog.

Look I really don't have a problem with the Orthodox churches, not really. It's just I don't think I can understand what it is their message and ministry is. Catholicism looks a lot more tenable.

Grace and peace,
Mark

If I'm not mistaken, the incense is about censing the icons and in that way venerating them communally and, when he censes the people, it's because each person, made in the image of God, is also an icon of Christ. I like it because it reminds me that the saints were people like us and we also have the potential to conform ourselves to Christ. Though others on this board could tell you better.

Nothing against your search for the RCC. Just wanted to answer as best I could.

 

[Theodoric]

Mark-

"Immaculate Conception" means that Mary was born perfect and without a human sin nature. SanctaMaria can tell me if I'm wrong about that.

I'm not criticizing that docrine or even saying whether or not I believe it. I'm just saying that is the Catholic teaching on the subject. It dates all the way back to 1854 as Catholic dogma.

 

[mark kennedy]

Hey Mark. That's awesome that you are looking into Catholicism and it sounds like you are well on your way. Having a catechism is a fantastic way of learning what we believe. Catholicism certainly has people who disagree and people who agree. We have churches that are more liberal and some that are more conservative. However, one thing that binds all of us together is the dogma and teachings that are infallible and unchangeable. We do not waffle and waver with the world like the +30,000.00 protestant denominations do.

I wouldn't listen to the protestants who frequent this board and attempt to stop people from converting. You seem like a guy who is already in discernment anyway so I doubt you will let them sway your opinion. I would recommend joining an RCIA class and speaking with a priest. Yes, we have some views that are different from the protestants. Such as the immaculate conception of Mary. We also believe the pope is infallible when speaking on matters of faith. Not a hard stretch to believe that the Holy Spirit still guides the Church in these matters.

You will find a rich and plentiful tradition here. Joining the Church that the Apostles started is a great thing. If you have any questions feel free to ask here of course. However, remember this is the internet lol!

Thank you, that's kind of what I'm thinking. I honestly don't get the immaculate conception thing but as an early Christian I didn't get the Trinity, some things take time. When you look at Popes some of them historically were bad, I mean seriously, but the Church always managed to find it's way through that. As far as that goes I'll take it as it comes, who knows, but I think your right about the RCIA classes, it can't hurt me to learn something about what it means to convert. I have had opportunities to talk to a priest, I just kind of shied away from it. I really didn't know how serious I was and I really want to give this some thought, some prayer and some time.

I appreciate what your saying and trust me, I'm not going to spend a lot of time worrying what Protestants say to discourage me. That sort of thing doesn't bother me, I even got a PM from someone who linked me to some Youtube videos about the horrible things Catholics did to some early Christians. I don't mind watching the videos but at the end of the day you have to decide, what does it mean right now.

There's time, thank you for your kind words of support. Hope to continue the conversation as I figure that all out.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

If I'm not mistaken, the incense is about censing the icons and in that way venerating them communally and, when he censes the people, it's because each person, made in the image of God, is also an icon of Christ. I like it because it reminds me that the saints were people like us and we also have the potential to conform ourselves to Christ. Though others on this board could tell you better.

Nothing against your search for the RCC. Just wanted to answer as best I could.

That was just a for instance, it's not exactly a deal breaker. What I've found when dealing with Orthodox teachings and practices is a strange ambiguity I can't really put my finger on. The incense is fine but the ceremony just kind of leaves me cold. Somehow the Orthodox have some emphasis on the Holy Spirit while Rome is more inclined to emphasis the Word. I don't really know what that all means but I think the eastern churches have a taste for a kind of mysticism. I'm just not comfortable with it, not really judging, just saying.

Grace and peace,
Mark