Converting Evolutionists to believers, is like forcing sand through an hourglass

[Gottservant]

Hi there,

So look I'm not actually appealing to you for any kind of help that you don't already have experience in, I'm just stating an obvious fact that Evolutionists are so stubborn in their beliefs that trying to convert them is like forcing sand through an hourglass. I mean their heads are loaded with all kind of memes that do not make sense and or do not let them think rationally and actually I'm sad to say, I think it even rubs off! There is no coherent telos to Evolution as far as they are concerned, so if you are left dealing with total chaos, that's your problem.

What I think it comes down to is whether you can hit upon a meme, that is merciful in some way. All of their memes are harsh "you must live with it" kind of memes and offer none of the mercy of Christ which is rich throughout the Gospel. And the Gospel is the point! If you could just replace one of their memes with something poignant and decisive that pointed to Christ, that they wanted to keep, then I think you would be on your way to converting someone to Christ. They would see the love in the meme, then the love in you, then the love in Christ and they would be home safe. That really is the goal here.

So what would it be? How could you show for example, that they had a choice in life, that they were not merely biological machines destined to make no great contribution to the species, with little hope that they will have a reason for compassion. At the moment all that I have been able to work out is that it comes down to whether the memes in their heads actually agree with each other, rather than point to something more. Pointing to something more would not be wrong of course, you could point to Christ! That's really what I'm trying to get at.

Part of the problem, is of course, that they don't even acknowledge the Devil. I think if there was a way to point out that struggling with the Devil actually advances the species, that would be a start, but I don't want to go down a garden path either. That means really, sin should come first, since the Devil has no power apart from sin. I can even think of something now, but I should probably argue with them. Sadly it is not a memorable meme, even at this stage, so I know in advance that I will be back at square one if I attempt it. That really is the frustrating part in all of this.

So look, if you have some tips here, for converting Evolutionists, or even just some frustrations, please share them. I think the more we build testimony to Christ, the closer we come to overcoming the Devil in this area. All he wants to do is talk about doing what he wants, so he needs to be overcome, but if we are talking about Christ, we don't need to say more than is sufficient, so in the end we will win. If you have doubts or you want to convert me to Evolution, you are not really paying attention to the point of this thread. Doubts are ok, but definitely do not try to convert me back, thanks.

 

[mark kennedy]

Hi there,

So look I'm not actually appealing to you for any kind of help that you don't already have experience in, I'm just stating an obvious fact that Evolutionists are so stubborn in their beliefs that trying to convert them is like forcing sand through an hourglass. I mean their heads are loaded with all kind of memes that do not make sense and or do not let them think rationally and actually I'm sad to say, I think it even rubs off! There is no coherent telos to Evolution as far as they are concerned, so if you are left dealing with total chaos, that's your problem.

A prevailing presupposition of exclusively naturalistic causes going all the way back to the Big Bang is how I would describe it. It's transcendent, that's the problem. What's the solution, that becomes the real question.

What I think it comes down to is whether you can hit upon a meme, that is merciful in some way. All of their memes are harsh "you must live with it" kind of memes and offer none of the mercy of Christ which is rich throughout the Gospel. And the Gospel is the point! If you could just replace one of their memes with something poignant and decisive that pointed to Christ, that they wanted to keep, then I think you would be on your way to converting someone to Christ. They would see the love in the meme, then the love in you, then the love in Christ and they would be home safe. That really is the goal here.

If you can get them there, invariably, Theistic Evolutionists have no choice but to accept the New Testament witness in stark, literal terms. Making the connection of creation to salvation is a little tedious but it's always the first order of business.

We will begin, then, with the creation of the world and with God its Maker, for the first fact that you must grasp is this: the renewal of creation has been wrought by the Self-same Word Who made it in the beginning. There is thus no inconsistency between creation and salvation for the One Father has employed the same Agent for both works, effecting the salvation of the world through the same Word Who made it in the beginning.​

(Athanasius Contra Mundum "Against the World")

They will squirm a little bit at first but they stop arguing when you get them to see the connection of creation to salvation.

So what would it be? How could you show for example, that they had a choice in life, that they were not merely biological machines destined to make no great contribution to the species, with little hope that they will have a reason for compassion. At the moment all that I have been able to work out is that it comes down to whether the memes in their heads actually agree with each other, rather than point to something more. Pointing to something more would not be wrong of course, you could point to Christ! That's really what I'm trying to get at.

I find it helpful to discern the difference between how life functions as a natural phenomenon and how it was created by divine fiat. That's why I refuse to let them equivocate Darwinian naturalistic assumptions with natural science, they are clearly not the same thing.

Part of the problem, is of course, that they don't even acknowledge the Devil. I think if there was a way to point out that struggling with the Devil actually advances the species, that would be a start, but I don't want to go down a garden path either. That means really, sin should come first, since the Devil has no power apart from sin. I can even think of something now, but I should probably argue with them. Sadly it is not a memorable meme, even at this stage, so I know in advance that I will be back at square one if I attempt it. That really is the frustrating part in all of this.

Theologians call this the noetic effects of sin, what we 'know' (the literal meaning of the word science), is effected by sin so we suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Not them, all of us, we are all struggling with the noetic effects of sin and alienated from God in our understanding apart from the work of Christ in our lives. Breaking through the willful ignorance of sinners like you and me requires an act of God and I do mean that literally. If it takes a miracle to save us, doesn't it make sense that it took a miracle to create us?

So look, if you have some tips here, for converting Evolutionists, or even just some frustrations, please share them. I think the more we build testimony to Christ, the closer we come to overcoming the Devil in this area. All he wants to do is talk about doing what he wants, so he needs to be overcome, but if we are talking about Christ, we don't need to say more than is sufficient, so in the end we will win. If you have doubts or you want to convert me to Evolution, you are not really paying attention to the point of this thread. Doubts are ok, but definitely do not try to convert me back, thanks.

Evolution is a phenomenon in nature, not a belief system. The belief system Christians are being zealously evangelized into is Darwinism. No Christian can knowingly abide by the naturalistic assumptions of Darwinism and still believe the clear testimony of Scripture. Start with what is obvious, creation and salvation are miracles with no inconsistency between them. That is, 'the first fact that you must grasp'.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[gluadys]

Hi there,

So look I'm not actually appealing to you for any kind of help that you don't already have experience in, I'm just stating an obvious fact that Evolutionists are so stubborn in their beliefs that trying to convert them is like forcing sand through an hourglass. I mean their heads are loaded with all kind of memes that do not make sense and or do not let them think rationally and actually I'm sad to say, I think it even rubs off! There is no coherent telos to Evolution as far as they are concerned, so if you are left dealing with total chaos, that's your problem.

What I think it comes down to is whether you can hit upon a meme, that is merciful in some way. All of their memes are harsh "you must live with it" kind of memes and offer none of the mercy of Christ which is rich throughout the Gospel. And the Gospel is the point! If you could just replace one of their memes with something poignant and decisive that pointed to Christ, that they wanted to keep, then I think you would be on your way to converting someone to Christ. They would see the love in the meme, then the love in you, then the love in Christ and they would be home safe. That really is the goal here.

So what would it be? How could you show for example, that they had a choice in life, that they were not merely biological machines destined to make no great contribution to the species, with little hope that they will have a reason for compassion. At the moment all that I have been able to work out is that it comes down to whether the memes in their heads actually agree with each other, rather than point to something more. Pointing to something more would not be wrong of course, you could point to Christ! That's really what I'm trying to get at.

Part of the problem, is of course, that they don't even acknowledge the Devil. I think if there was a way to point out that struggling with the Devil actually advances the species, that would be a start, but I don't want to go down a garden path either. That means really, sin should come first, since the Devil has no power apart from sin. I can even think of something now, but I should probably argue with them. Sadly it is not a memorable meme, even at this stage, so I know in advance that I will be back at square one if I attempt it. That really is the frustrating part in all of this.

So look, if you have some tips here, for converting Evolutionists, or even just some frustrations, please share them. I think the more we build testimony to Christ, the closer we come to overcoming the Devil in this area. All he wants to do is talk about doing what he wants, so he needs to be overcome, but if we are talking about Christ, we don't need to say more than is sufficient, so in the end we will win. If you have doubts or you want to convert me to Evolution, you are not really paying attention to the point of this thread. Doubts are ok, but definitely do not try to convert me back, thanks.

The title assumes that evolutionists are not believers. But many evolutionists are already believers and do not need to be converted.

I agree, the Gospel is the point. Preach the Gospel and don't worry what people think about evolution. You will certainly get more conversions that way.

Typically for you, you make assumptions, which, while they may be accepted by some people who also accept evolution are not tied to evolutionary theory. Believers who accept evolution do not hold to these ideas.

For example: some people think we are nothing but biological machines, but this is not part of the theory of evolution. It is a philosophical meme not a scientific meme. Many people, including scientists, who fully accept evolution also agree we are not just biological machines. Even atheists. Richard Dawkins points out that humans have freed themselves from biological destiny and can act counter to ingrained genetic instincts. Christian believers who accept evolution still hold as well to Christian teaching that we are made in God's image and redeemed by Christ to fulfill a destiny beyond biology. Accepting evolution does not require rejecting a Christian anthropology.

And where did you get the idea that evolutionists don't acknowledge the Devil? That has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. Some do and some don't. I am an evolutionist, but I certainly acknowledge the Devil, for I see his work all around me--even sometimes within me. But by God's grace, we overcome the Devil.

I won't worry about converting you to evolution. You shouldn't "believe" evolution anyway, since it is not a faith issue. But this is what I would ask of you: to recognize that it is not a faith issue. Your brothers and sisters who accept evolution and have faith in Christ are not in any need of conversion. As for unbelievers--present Christ and let them make their own choice about evolution.

 

[lesliedellow]

Christian believers who accept evolution still hold as well to Christian teaching that we are made in God's image and redeemed by Christ to fulfill a destiny beyond biology. Accepting evolution does not require rejecting a Christian anthropology.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[Radagast]

I'm just stating an obvious fact that Evolutionists are so stubborn in their beliefs that trying to convert them is like forcing sand through an hourglass.

Well, theistic evolutionists are believers, of course -- as several people have already said.

 

[JGiddings]

So goes the days of our lives.


Seriously though I think that the word "convert" isn't applicable here. It's more like showing them the facts biblically. We need to be patient and put it in the terms of their understanding. Mix a little science in there...don't go overboard talking about earth age theory. Just stick to the point at hand. Evolution is not correct. Then prove it.

The last thing we should do is demonize the man. A LOT of Christians do that now a days, which is a tangent to the subject that evolution is just wrong.

 

[Armoured]

Evolution is not correct. Then prove it.

*popcorn*

 

[theFijian]

Converting Evolutionists to believers, is like forcing sand through an hourglass

It's easy to force sand through an hourglass, just turn it upside down

 

[pgp_protector]

It's easy to force sand through an hourglass, just turn it upside down

And give it Time

ETA:
Opps, didn't know this OP couldn't respond anymore.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Converting Evolutionists to believers, is like forcing sand through an hourglass
...And so is the days of their lives

 

[mark kennedy]

And give it Time

That's what she said:

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Great thread! Subscribing


.

 

[pgp_protector]

Great thread! Subscribing


.

OP is no longer around.

 

[dhh712]

Hi there,

So look I'm not actually appealing to you for any kind of help that you don't already have experience in, I'm just stating an obvious fact that Evolutionists are so stubborn in their beliefs that trying to convert them is like forcing sand through an hourglass. I mean their heads are loaded with all kind of memes that do not make sense and or do not let them think rationally and actually I'm sad to say, I think it even rubs off! There is no coherent telos to Evolution as far as they are concerned, so if you are left dealing with total chaos, that's your problem.

What I think it comes down to is whether you can hit upon a meme, that is merciful in some way. All of their memes are harsh "you must live with it" kind of memes and offer none of the mercy of Christ which is rich throughout the Gospel. And the Gospel is the point! If you could just replace one of their memes with something poignant and decisive that pointed to Christ, that they wanted to keep, then I think you would be on your way to converting someone to Christ. They would see the love in the meme, then the love in you, then the love in Christ and they would be home safe. That really is the goal here.

So what would it be? How could you show for example, that they had a choice in life, that they were not merely biological machines destined to make no great contribution to the species, with little hope that they will have a reason for compassion. At the moment all that I have been able to work out is that it comes down to whether the memes in their heads actually agree with each other, rather than point to something more. Pointing to something more would not be wrong of course, you could point to Christ! That's really what I'm trying to get at.

Part of the problem, is of course, that they don't even acknowledge the Devil. I think if there was a way to point out that struggling with the Devil actually advances the species, that would be a start, but I don't want to go down a garden path either. That means really, sin should come first, since the Devil has no power apart from sin. I can even think of something now, but I should probably argue with them. Sadly it is not a memorable meme, even at this stage, so I know in advance that I will be back at square one if I attempt it. That really is the frustrating part in all of this.

So look, if you have some tips here, for converting Evolutionists, or even just some frustrations, please share them. I think the more we build testimony to Christ, the closer we come to overcoming the Devil in this area. All he wants to do is talk about doing what he wants, so he needs to be overcome, but if we are talking about Christ, we don't need to say more than is sufficient, so in the end we will win. If you have doubts or you want to convert me to Evolution, you are not really paying attention to the point of this thread. Doubts are ok, but definitely do not try to convert me back, thanks.

I would suggest letting God do His work. I believed in evolution as an atheist; I had not studied it much, but accepted it as truth because that is what was scientifically acceptable and taught in schools. Now my authority for truth lies in the what the Word of God has to say, not what the world says; if it conflicts with what science has to say, well that is alright with me. What science says is just what the world has to say about the world. For what is true, I trust what God says; my authority for what is true comes from what the Bible teaches us about the world, not what the world teaches us about the world.

 

[James Is Back]

I would suggest letting God do His work. I believed in evolution as an atheist; I had not studied it much, but accepted it as truth because that is what was scientifically acceptable and taught in schools. Now my authority for truth lies in the what the Word of God has to say, not what the world says; if it conflicts with what science has to say, well that is alright with me. What science says is just what the world has to say about the world. For what is true, I trust what God says; my authority for what is true comes from what the Bible teaches us about the world, not what the world teaches us about the world.

Couldn't agree with you more. God's word is what's more important than anything.