Conversion therapy

Paidiske · Oct 5, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Please - I didnt say that... where did you get that from, unless you wanted to portray me as some sort of fringe idiot...

My reference was directly responding to comment on the place of prayer and deliverance.

These are well established ministries in both RC and Anglican churches over here.

Your statement was ambiguous. It's true that Anglican churches have strong and well regulated (the emphasis being on the well regulated) ministries of prayer and deliverance. But it's important to be clear that these are not conversion therapy.

There are fringe elements who engage in conversion therapy, but they don't tend to be situated within the well regulated, properly overseen deliverance ministry.

Carl Emerson · Oct 5, 2020

Paidiske said:
I think it's pretty clear to say that if you're trying to change someone's sexuality or gender identity, it's conversion therapy.

But if you assist someone who desires to change, what do you call that?

Folks have very different ideas about what 'Conversion Therapy' actually is.
Some probably think that it will become illegal to assist someone to become born again.

Personally I think that genuine ministry in the area of providing assistance with the spiritual, emotional and physical needs of someone wanting to revert to birth gender is rare but it does exist.

Paidiske · Oct 5, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
But if you assist someone who desires to change, what do you call that?

Again, it depends what form that assistance takes.

If you're trying to do something designed to make that change happen (if it's a change of sexuality or gender identity), it's probably conversion therapy.

That is, in fact, slightly separate from the question of transitioning or de-transitioning, because neither of those are aiming to change someone's gender identity, but about helping people live in conformity with their gender identity.

Carl Emerson · Oct 5, 2020

Paidiske said:
Your statement was ambiguous. It's true that Anglican churches have strong and well regulated (the emphasis being on the well regulated) ministries of prayer and deliverance. But it's important to be clear that these are not conversion therapy.

There are fringe elements who engage in conversion therapy, but they don't tend to be situated within the well regulated, properly overseen deliverance ministry.

Check out post #93 - there was no ambiguity at all - I never mentioned 'Conversion Therapy' in this church context.

I am well aware of what the Anglican church offers - my son is on the journey towards becoming a Priest.

JacksBratt · Oct 5, 2020

Paidiske said:
If you can design a method of research that can attract funding and pass ethical approval, by all means go for it. In the meantime, there is no known way to do this, no. What there are, are a bunch of untrue claims that there are ways to do this; but in fact those methods both don't work and do real harm.

Again, (drawing on my synod speech!), I'm not going to say that God can never change any of these things in people. But we do enormous harm when we, as limited and fallible mortals, try to do what only God can do.

I would also note that this is not, as @Carl Emerson seems to fear, a "total ban" on providing ministry and support to such people. It is a very narrow restriction on particular harmful practices.

Are you a psychotherapist? A psychiatrist?

I find it very hard to believe that all methods of attempting to take a person with gender dysphoria... and correct them... are harmful.

You do realize that gender dysphoria is a real mental condition... right?

So, if it is a real mental condition.. there must be non destructive methods to correct it.

However.. there is no way on this earth that you are going to do it, practice it or study and test new methods to do it..............IF... it is socially unacceptable to try to help someone who is suffering from gender dysphoria... and if gender dysphoria is totally discounted by the LGBTQ movement.... which is so strong that the SJW's will swarm you if you talk as if it is not natural.... then... the anti Christian people in power will never allow it.

Carl Emerson · Oct 5, 2020

Paidiske said:
Again, it depends what form that assistance takes.

If you're trying to do something designed to make that change happen (if it's a change of sexuality or gender identity), it's probably conversion therapy.

That is, in fact, slightly separate from the question of transitioning or de-transitioning, because neither of those are aiming to change someone's gender identity, but about helping people live in conformity with their gender identity.

This discussion is becoming circular because 'Conversion Therapy is not being defined, and the term is being used as a 'catch all' phrase to justify banning Christian ministry that assists those wanting to revert to their birth gender.

Anthony2019 · Oct 5, 2020

Paidiske said:
No Anglican church of which I am aware has strong and well regulated ministry in conversion therapy.

I'm not aware of any either.
I know that the CofE is vehemently opposed to it and has been actively campaigning to have it banned. Sentamu once said "'The sooner the practice of so-called conversion therapy is banned, I can sleep at night".
I'm not sure about other churches in the Anglican Communion though.

seeking.IAM · Oct 5, 2020

The trend in therapy is toward evidence-based practice. A problem with conversion therapy is there is not a body of reputable empirical evidence that it does what it's supposed to do. As a therapist, I think it is fine for adults to seek and pay for any therapy they want as long as (a) they understand there is no empirical evidence behind it and (b) they are paying for it out of their own pocket. I also think it's reasonable that insurance companies, Medicaid, or Medicare don't pay for it since its not supported by evidence. It's most significant abuse is parents trying to force children to participate in a therapy the youth do not want for behavior they have no desire to change.

Quartermaine · Oct 5, 2020

JacksBratt said:
Are you a psychotherapist? A psychiatrist?

I find it very hard to believe that all methods of attempting to take a person with gender dysphoria... and correct them... are harmful.

You do realize that gender dysphoria is a real mental condition... right?

So, if it is a real mental condition.. there must be non destructive methods to correct it.

gender dysphoria is is the distress and anxiety a person feels due to a mismatch between their gender identity and their sex assigned at birth. and that anxiety is almost universally from outside the person.

Its not the mismatch that is the problem but the anxiety it causes. So ethical and effective treatment relies on reducing that anxiety, dealing with outside factors and developing coping mechanisms along with self acceptance.

However.. there is no way on this earth that you are going to do it, practice it or study and test new methods to do it..............IF... it is socially unacceptable to try to help someone who is suffering from gender dysphoria... and if gender dysphoria is totally discounted by the LGBTQ movement.... which is so strong that the SJW's will swarm you if you talk as if it is not natural.... then... the anti Christian people in power will never allow it.

of course gender dysphoria exists and it is treatable. But you aren't talking about addressing gender dysphoria you are talking about coercing individuals to conform to your preconceived notions of gender and identity.

Quartermaine · Oct 5, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
This discussion is becoming circular because 'Conversion Therapy is not being defined, and the term is being used as a 'catch all' phrase to justify banning Christian ministry that assists those wanting to revert to their birth gender.

"assist those wanting to revert to the birth gender" is not being defined at all.

Quartermaine · Oct 5, 2020

seeking.IAM said:
The trend in therapy is toward evidence-based practice. A problem with conversion therapy is there is not a body of reputable empirical evidence that it does what it's supposed to do. As a therapist, I think it is fine for adults to seek and pay for any therapy they want as long as (a) they understand there is no empirical evidence behind it and (b) they are paying for it out of their own pocket. I also think it's reasonable that insurance companies, Medicaid, or Medicare don't pay for it since its not supported by evidence. It's most significant abuse is parents trying to force children to participate in a therapy the youth do not want for behavior they have no desire to change.

sadly most conversion therapy is now targeted at children as young as age 3 and there is no disclosure as to the effectiveness of the "therapy" There is no disclosure at the lack of evidence or the safety of what is being attempted

Paidiske · Oct 5, 2020

JacksBratt said:
Are you a psychotherapist? A psychiatrist?

I find it very hard to believe that all methods of attempting to take a person with gender dysphoria... and correct them... are harmful.

You do realize that gender dysphoria is a real mental condition... right?

So, if it is a real mental condition.. there must be non destructive methods to correct it.

However.. there is no way on this earth that you are going to do it, practice it or study and test new methods to do it..............IF... it is socially unacceptable to try to help someone who is suffering from gender dysphoria... and if gender dysphoria is totally discounted by the LGBTQ movement.... which is so strong that the SJW's will swarm you if you talk as if it is not natural.... then... the anti Christian people in power will never allow it.

No, I am not a psychotherapist or psychiatrist.

Yes, I realise gender dysphoria is real, and that there are various therapeutic approaches to dealing with gender dysphoria. It is not socially unacceptable to try to help someone with gender dysphoria. Nor is gender dysphoria totally discounted by the LGBTQ movement; it is an important issue for that movement!

That is not the same things as trying to change someone's gender identity.

Carl Emerson said:
This discussion is becoming circular because 'Conversion Therapy is not being defined, and the term is being used as a 'catch all' phrase to justify banning Christian ministry that assists those wanting to revert to their birth gender.

Conversion therapy is very clearly defined as an attempt to change someone's sexuality or gender identity. And no, it is not about banning Christian ministry that assists those wanting to revert to their birth gender.

If someone has transitioned (socially and/or physically), and then wishes to detransition because they decide that in fact they identify with their birth sex, there is nothing banning anyone from helping them to do that. Because in that case the change is not to their gender identity, but in helping someone live in conformity with their gender identity.

The issue is more where churches try to pressure people to detransition, or tries to make people identify with their birth sex.

Anthony2019 · Oct 5, 2020

seeking.IAM said:
The trend in therapy is toward evidence-based practice. A problem with conversion therapy is there is not a body of reputable empirical evidence that it does what it's supposed to do. As a therapist, I think it is fine for adults to seek and pay for any therapy they want as long as (a) they understand there is no empirical evidence behind it and (b) they are paying for it out of their own pocket. I also think it's reasonable that insurance companies, Medicaid, or Medicare don't pay for it since its not supported by evidence. It's most significant abuse is parents trying to force children to participate in a therapy the youth do not want for behavior they have no desire to change.

I think that one of the reasons that conversion therapy is unethical is that in the majority of cases it is not carried out with proper consent. For consent to be valid, it has to be both voluntary and informed.
I suspect that most people seeking conversion therapy do not do so out of their own volition, but because they feel pressured to do so by an influencing group or individual. They are also not given the full facts and evidence so they can weigh things up and make an informed decision.

Carl Emerson · Oct 5, 2020

Anthony2019 said:
I'm not aware of any either.
I know that the CofE is vehemently opposed to it and has been actively campaigning to have it banned. Sentamu once said "'The sooner the practice of so-called conversion therapy is banned, I can sleep at night".
I'm not sure about other churches in the Anglican Communion though.

Did you not get that nobody said that ????????? !!!!!!

All this discussion but no one is prepared to define it and are leaving the door open for any legitimate ministry assisting folks that want to reverse their transition to be banned.

Doesnt anyone care ???

Carl Emerson · Oct 5, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Did you not get that nobody said that ????????? !!!!!!

All this discussion but no one is prepared to define it and are leaving the door open for any legitimate ministry assisting folks that want to reverse their transition to be banned.

Doesnt anyone care ???

Sorry Paidiske just gave some definition as I typed...

Thanks for that.

That is some reassurance.

Paidiske · Oct 5, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
All this discussion but no one is prepared to define it...

What is unclear about the definition I have offered multiple times in this thread; the attempt to change someone's sexuality or gender identity?

Yes, I care. I care that ignorant and foolish Christians have harmed and, without government intervention, will cheerfully continue to harm, vulnerable people who turn to them for help. I want to see that stop.

seeking.IAM · Oct 5, 2020

Quartermaine said:
sadly most conversion therapy is now targeted at children as young as age 3 and there is no disclosure as to the effectiveness of the "therapy" There is no disclosure at the lack of evidence or the safety of what is being attempted

And that is to say nothing of the ludicrousy of one thinking they can know anything definitive of a three-year-old's sexual orientation or gender identification.

dqhall · Oct 5, 2020

Quartermaine said:
the direct connection between prejudice and mood disorders has been shown time and time again.

M.J. Rotherman-Borus Suicidal Behavior and Gay-Related Stress among Gay and Bisexual Male Adolescents Journal of adolescent research 2013

V. P. Poteat and D. L. Espelage Predicting Psychosocial Consequences of Homophobic Victimization in Middle School Students Journal of Adolescence 2009

Meyer, I. H . Prejudice, social stress, and mental health in lesbian, gay, and bisexual populations. Psychological Bulletin, Sep 2003

V.M. Mays & S.D. Cochran “Mental health correlates of perceived discrimination among lesbian, gay and bisexual adults in the United States 2001

J. Ramirez-Valles, L. M. Kuhns, R. T. Campbell, and R. M. Diaz Social Integration and Health: Community Involvement, Stigmatized Identities, and Sexual Risk in Latino Sexual Minorities journal of health and societal behavior.2010

L. E. Ross, C. Dobinson, and A. Eady Perceived Determinants of Mental Health for Bisexual People: A Qualitative Examination American Journal of Public Health 2009

S. K. Dane and G. MacDonald Heterosexuals' acceptance predicts the well-being of same-sex attracted young adults beyond ingroup support Journal of social and personal relationships 2007

D. M. Huebner, G. M. Rebchook, and S. M. Kegeles. Experiences of Harassment, Discrimination, and Physical Violence Among Young Gay and Bisexual Men American Journal of public heath 2005

Mays, V.M. and Cochran, S.D. Mental Health Correlates of Perceived Discrimination Among Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Adults in the United States. American Journal of Public Health Nov 2001

M.L. Hatzenbuehler The Social Environment and Suicide Attempts in Lesbian Gay and Bisexual Youth. Pediatrics 2011

Cochran, S.D. Sulivan, J.G. and Mays V.M. Prevalence of mental disorders, psychological distress, and mental services use among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Feb 2003

Sanfort, T.G.M., deGraaf, R. and Schnabel, P. Same-Sex Sexual Behavior and Psychiatric Disorders: Findings From the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence Study. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001

Meyer, I. H. Minority Stress and Mental Health in Gay Men Journal of health and social behavior 2010

Fredrikson, K.I et al Successful Aging Among LGBT Older Adults: Physical and Mental Health-Related Quality of Life by Age Group. The Gerontologist Sept 2014

Kattari, S.K. and Hasche, L. Differences Across Age Groups in Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming People's Experiences of Health Care Discrimination, Harassment, and Victimization. J of Aging June 2015

Peel, E. and Nodin, N. Risk and Resilience Explored for Sexual Minorities in England: Qualitative Findings. Applied Qualitative Research in Psychology, Aug 2014

Burns M.N. et al Mental Health Disorders in Young Urban Sexual Minority Men. J of Adolescent Health Jan 2015

Holloway, I. W. Padilla, M. B. and WIllner, L. Effects of Minority stress processes on the mental health of Latino men who have sex with men. Arch of sexual behavior Sept 2014

Charles K. et al Sexual minority status and trauma symptom severity. J of behavioral medicine Jan 2011

Marshal, P.M. and Dermody S.S. Depressive symptoms and suicidality among heterosexual and sexual minority youth J of youth and adolescence april 2013

Pachankis J. E. and COcran, S.D. The mental health of sexual minority adults in and out of the closet: A population-based study. J of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Oct 2015

Bostwick W.B. et al. Discrimination and mental health among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. Am J of Orthopshcyiatry Jan 2014

D. M. Huebner, G. M. Rebchook, and S. M. Kegeles. Experiences of Harassment, Discrimination, and Physical Violence Among Young Gay and Bisexual Men American Journal of public heath 2005

Hershberger, S.L. N.W. Pilkington and A.R. D’Augelli. Predictors of Suicide Attempts Among Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Youth. J of Adolescent research. 1997

Poteat, V.P. and D.L Espelage. Predicting Psychosocial Consequences of Homophobic Victimization in Middle School Students J of Adolescent research. 2007

Meyer, I. H . Prejudice, social stress, and mental health in lesbian, gay, and bisexual populations. Psychological Bulletin, Sep 2003

S. K. Dane and G. MacDonald Heterosexuals' acceptance predicts the well-being of same-sex attracted young adults beyond ingroup support Journal of social and personal relationships 2007

Kyung-Hee Choi, Paul J. Experiences of Discrimination and Their Impact on the Mental Health among African American, Asian and Pacific Islander, and Latino Men Who Have Sex with Men. Am J Public Health. 2013

Savin-Williams, Ritch C. Verbal and physical abuse as stressors in the lives of lesbian, gay male, and bisexual youths: Associations with school problems, running away, substance abuse, prostitution, and suicide. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 2014

Graham L.F. Et al Factors Influencing Depression and Anxiety among Black Sexual Minority Men. J of depression research and treatment 2011

Has any one of these psychologists ever healed someone of unnatural lust? The psychiatrists do not have a pill to fix it.

Carl Emerson · Oct 5, 2020

seeking.IAM said:
The trend in therapy is toward evidence-based practice. A problem with conversion therapy is there is not a body of reputable empirical evidence that it does what it's supposed to do. As a therapist, I think it is fine for adults to seek and pay for any therapy they want as long as (a) they understand there is no empirical evidence behind it and (b) they are paying for it out of their own pocket. I also think it's reasonable that insurance companies, Medicaid, or Medicare don't pay for it since its not supported by evidence. It's most significant abuse is parents trying to force children to participate in a therapy the youth do not want for behavior they have no desire to change.

I have a problem with therapy being evidence based as youth suicide in my country is going out the roof and heaps of dollars are being poured into social services of various kinds including professional therapy. There seems to be a serious lack of evidence to justify the therapeutic practices being employed.

And are we saying that the gentleman in post#93 is a fake?

seeking.IAM · Oct 5, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
...
And are we saying that the gentleman in post#93 is a fake?

Carl, in my view of this thread, post #93 is your post. What post are you referencing?

Conversion therapy

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