Conversion therapy

Inkfingers · Oct 5, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
We are at election time and the Govt has announced intention to ban 'Converson Therapy' for those who wish to transition back to biological gender. (Forgive me if I use the wrong terminology, I am no expert.)

What I would like to know is if this therapy is Christian based. (I suspect not)

I would also like to know if such a ban might prohibit legitimate ministries in the church from assisting such a transition.

We in NewZealand have a Govt. trying to lead the world in 'progressive legislation'

Thanks for your help.

I recall that there are biblical injunctions against the mutilation of the flesh...

Tropical Wilds · Oct 5, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
We are at election time and the Govt has announced intention to ban 'Converson Therapy' for those who wish to transition back to biological gender. (Forgive me if I use the wrong terminology, I am no expert.)

What I would like to know is if this therapy is Christian based. (I suspect not)

I would also like to know if such a ban might prohibit legitimate ministries in the church from assisting such a transition.

We in NewZealand have a Govt. trying to lead the world in 'progressive legislation'

Thanks for your help.

It isn’t Christian.
It isn’t science-supported.
It is not effective.
It should not be legal.

parousia70 · Oct 5, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
children aren't gay

Wait... what?

hedrick · Oct 5, 2020

To my knowledge, laws against conversion therapy normally target claims to be able to change sexual orientation or gender identity. I do not believe they target spiritual or psychological support for individuals that want to live celibate lives, or even (although i would consider this irresponsible) marrying the opposite gender when they have a homosexual orientation.

To my knowledge, detransitioning is legal and it has not been proposed to make it illegal.

Laws are typically stricter with minors, because of the danger of parental coercion, and because the child can’t easily escape. I think conflict between conservative Christians and the law is most likely with minors.Telling a child that they are going to hell if they don’t repent of being gay or transgender is widely considered child abuse. However it’s difficult to know how to outlaw doing this without violating religious freedom. Different countries will place the line in different places.

The Australian document Paidiske pointed to points out the damage caused by this kind of language, but their actual proposal for laws seems to be restricted to conversion, meaning claims or attempts to change someone’s sexual orientation or identity.

Redwingfan9 · Oct 5, 2020

Quartermaine said:
there is any number of people who claim to have been abducted by UFO's as well.

A huge discontinuity when you ask those who have been "cured" if they are heterosexual. Chances are you won't get a straight answer. There is talk about "leaving the gay lifestyle, what ever that is, and struggles with same sex attraction but no one saying i am a happy healthy heterosexual

Since when are Christians promised happiness? Our lives are one of battle against sin. It's a constant struggle for all of us.

hedrick · Oct 5, 2020

The OP is about New Zealand. As far as I can tell from news accounts, parties have said they want to ban conversion therapy, but there's no specific proposal out there. The discussion makes is sound like they're thinking of something like the Australian report, i.e. banning attempts to change orientation or identity, but not necessarily attempts to live a celibate life or to live as your birth gender. It also doesn't appear that they would attempt to stop telling a child that they're going to hell if they don't change.

Paidiske · Oct 5, 2020

JacksBratt said:
Would it not be better to research and develop a method that is not harmful. I mean really, if you look at it.. The individual is either male or female in every way except what is in their mind. If you were to see them on a autopsy table.. you would see, in all respects, male or female.

So, if all of this is in their mind.. Is their not a way to safely, methodically, lovingly help them to overcome their mental issues without harm?

If you can design a method of research that can attract funding and pass ethical approval, by all means go for it. In the meantime, there is no known way to do this, no. What there are, are a bunch of untrue claims that there are ways to do this; but in fact those methods both don't work and do real harm.

Again, (drawing on my synod speech!), I'm not going to say that God can never change any of these things in people. But we do enormous harm when we, as limited and fallible mortals, try to do what only God can do.

I would also note that this is not, as @Carl Emerson seems to fear, a "total ban" on providing ministry and support to such people. It is a very narrow restriction on particular harmful practices.

hluke · Oct 5, 2020

Tropical Wilds said:
It isn’t Christian.
It isn’t science-supported.
It is not effective.
It should not be legal.

Maybe then Christians should avoid homosexuals in general?

Creationism is not science supported, neither is the existence of God

Sparagmos · Oct 5, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...8/LGBT+conversion+therapy+in+Australia+v2.pdf

This report was commissioned in Australia.

I mean a source describing what the government is considering doing about conversion therapy?

Llleopard · Oct 5, 2020

Newspaper article about it
Election 2020: Labour vows to end gay conversion therapy and pour $4 million into Rainbow youth mental health services

The labour party policy page
Rainbow

hluke · Oct 5, 2020

Sparagmos said:
I

Say Christ's name

Anthony2019 · Oct 5, 2020

I am very much opposed to conversion therapy. Not only is there ample evidence to show that it does not work, there is also evidence to show that it can cause serious damage to people's psychological and emotional health. It has absolutely no place in conventional medicine.

I find it very perplexing that churches are trying to introduce reparitive therapies in their ministries in an attempt to change people's sexual orientation. Practicably every ex-gay ministry I have heard of has disbanded which seems to suggest that when we "pray the gay away", not much seems to be happening. Is it our lack of faith or is it that God does not see a change in sexual orientation as being particularly important?

Sexual orientation is not the same as sexual behaviour. In my view, sexual orientation is as natural to a person as being left or right handed. No matter how much someone who is left handed tries to compensate by using their right hand, it will never feel "normal" or "right" for them. I believe it is the same with sexuality. Most people will never be able to change their sexual orientation, no matter how much they try, and their only option is to accept things the way they are.

All Christians are all called for the same purpose - to love and serve God and to glorify Him. We should not be focusing on changing sexual orientation, but instead focusing on how we can change our behaviour and actions and how we can live godly lives.

Carl Emerson · Oct 5, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
The church can assist by prayer and deliverance. I don't know legally how churches stand on this though in any country. I am not really familiar with how The churches in New Zealand operate in this kind of area?

Mainstream churches like RC and Anglican have strong and well regulated ministries in this area.

Carl Emerson · Oct 5, 2020

Inkfingers said:
I recall that there are biblical injunctions against the mutilation of the flesh...

You mean surgery???

Where does the bible say that ???

Carl Emerson · Oct 5, 2020

Tropical Wilds said:
It isn’t Christian.
It isn’t science-supported.
It is not effective.
It should not be legal.

Please define what you understand it to be first...

Carl Emerson · Oct 5, 2020

Paidiske said:
I would also note that this is not, as @Carl Emerson seems to fear, a "total ban" on providing ministry and support to such people. It is a very narrow restriction on particular harmful practices.

I hope you are right - are those practices specifically defined?

Paidiske · Oct 5, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Mainstream churches like RC and Anglican have strong and well regulated ministries in this area.

No Anglican church of which I am aware has strong and well regulated ministry in conversion therapy.

There are some... cowboy ministries... which operate on the fringes.

Paidiske · Oct 5, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
I hope you are right - are those practices specifically defined?

I think it's pretty clear to say that if you're trying to change someone's sexuality or gender identity, it's conversion therapy.

Carl Emerson · Oct 5, 2020

Sparagmos said:
I mean a source describing what the government is considering doing about conversion therapy?

That is a problem because the have announced intent to ban it but I dont know what definition they are working with.

Carl Emerson · Oct 5, 2020

Paidiske said:
No Anglican church of which I am aware has strong and well regulated ministry in conversion therapy.

There are some... cowboy ministries... which operate on the fringes.

Please - I didnt say that... where did you get that from, unless you wanted to portray me as some sort of fringe idiot...

My reference was directly responding to comment on the place of prayer and deliverance.

These are well established ministries in both RC and Anglican churches over here.

Conversion therapy

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