Conversion therapy

Carl Emerson · Oct 8, 2020

Quartermaine said:
telling people homosexuality is an illness or developmental process that can be fixed or cured is not spiritual

You would need to define 'spiritual'

I guess Jesus casting demons out of folks in bondage was not 'spiritual' either.

Quartermaine · Oct 8, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
If you have examples then the church authorities would welcome your evidence.

you made the claim. Back it up

Quartermaine · Oct 8, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
You would need to define 'spiritual'

I guess Jesus casting demons out of folks in bondage was not 'spiritual' either.

no honest person could describe making false claims spirtual

NBB · Oct 8, 2020

Paidiske said:
No. I am saying that there is more than one way to engage in deliverance ministry. One does not have to make it about sexuality or gender identity in order for it to be effective. In fact I would expect that to be counter-productive.

You know people who engage in this practices the bible says they can't enter heaven right?
So, trying to 'convince' someone so they stop with that lifestyle is a favour to them with this in mind, why in this century christians should be careful with some people and issues when everyone knows that to be with God we need to stop being adulterers, thiefs, liars, etc etc. and this sins are included too there.

Carl Emerson · Oct 8, 2020

Quartermaine said:
no honest person could describe making false claims spirtual

Implying I am not honest does not help your cause.

Lets stick to the topic rather than slipping into slander.

Carl Emerson · Oct 8, 2020

Quartermaine said:
no honest person could describe making false claims spirtual

Did Jesus make false claims?

Carl Emerson · Oct 8, 2020

Quartermaine said:
you made the claim. Back it up

This was an observation made in the exchange with Paidiske, to which she didnt disagree. If you have evidence to refute this, then bring it.

Paidiske · Oct 8, 2020

NBB said:
You know people who engage in this practices the bible says they can't enter heaven right?
So, trying to 'convince' someone so they stop with that lifestyle is a favour to them with this in mind, why in this century christians should be careful with some people and issues when everyone knows that to be with God we need to stop being adulterers, thiefs, liars, etc etc. and this sins are included too there.

Except conversion therapy isn't about practices or lifestyle. It's about orientation or identity, and is often something the person concerned is not able to change, despite many years of trying.

As to the claim that church authorities would welcome evidence of people engaging in unauthorised deliverance ministry, in my experience, bishops tend to look the other way rather than be quick to engage in church discipline (for this and so many other matters).

Carl Emerson · Oct 8, 2020

Actually that is not what I said - I chose my words carefully.

I asked if there were cases of priests - who had been given the blessing of the bishop to exercise a deliverance ministry - had been found to use abusive practices in the course of their ministry.

I have never heard of this, I got the impression you had not either.

Paidiske · Oct 8, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Actually that is not what I said - I chose my words carefully.

I asked if there were cases of priests - who had been given the blessing of the bishop to exercise a deliverance ministry - had been found to use abusive practices in the course of their ministry.

I have never heard of this, I got the impression you had not either.

In the diocese I just left, only two priests were authorised to exercise such a ministry. Many, many more priests actually did so, though. That's the unaccountable edge where bad practices flourish.

Carl Emerson · Oct 8, 2020

OK got it - this then is a failure of the Church authority to manage it effectively.

Like I said - revision is needed from the top down - the fact that legislation is being considered is a gross failure on the part of the church.

Paidiske · Oct 8, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
OK got it - this then is a failure of the Church authority to manage it effectively.

Like I said - revision is needed from the top down - the fact that legislation is being considered is a gross failure on the part of the church.

But again, Carl, the legislation is for everyone, not just Christians or churches. It's for secular practitioners and other religious groups as well. That's not solely a church failure, and it can't be fixed by the church getting its act together (though that would help).

But the argument that somehow the law shouldn't apply to Christians or churches I find absolutely abhorrent.

Carl Emerson · Oct 8, 2020

Paidiske said:
But the argument that somehow the law shouldn't apply to Christians or churches I find absolutely abhorrent.

You are missing the point - if the church was functioning properly they would not be a target. I am stressing the point that the church should not need the law - the bible tells us there is no law against love.

Paidiske · Oct 8, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
You are missing the point - if the church was functioning properly they would not be a target. I am stressing the point that the church should not need the law - the bible tells us there is no law against love.

Well then I think we're kind of in agreement. We shouldn't be doing this, law or no law; so if there is a law saying not to do it, it should be no problem for us.

Carl Emerson · Oct 8, 2020

However apart from this, the motive of those who pushed for such legislation is suspect.

It is driven by the agenda to promote a practice the scripture singles out as serious sin - to the point of requiring the death penalty for those who practiced it - as acceptable.

But wait, there is more, they want it to be illegal to condemn the practice - and even more they want any attempt to assist folks who want to repent and reform to be in breach of the law as well.

Great plan to secure lifestyle clearly in breach of God's will for us.

Paidiske · Oct 8, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
But wait, there is more, they want it to be illegal to condemn the practice - and even more they want any attempt to assist folks who want to repent and reform to be in breach of the law as well

No; the proposed is not about practices or teachings about practices. It is about trying to change someone's sexual orientation or gender identity. That is a very distinct matter from any practices.

Carl Emerson · Oct 8, 2020

In our country the Law is to go much further than that...

Read this from 'Family First' a Christian Values organisation...

Further Criminalisation of Parents

Both and the Greens want to criminalise parents who affirm sons as boys & daughters as girls.

They call it "conversion therapy" but “banning conversion therapy” is Orwellian double-speak for any attempt by parents or counsellors to reduce gender dysphoria by helping the child become comfortable with its natal identity, and not ushering the child onto the pathway of affirmation. A ban would criminalise parents who wish to protect their child from the physical, emotional, and psychological harm caused by gender dysphoria.

The term “conversion therapy” has been coined by activists without a clear definition to go along with it, so the rest of us are now left trying to discover what it means. IF the definition of 'conversion therapy' means practices that are coercive, abusive or involuntary, or includes things like electric shock therapy then we can all agree that such things must be condemned. However, if their understanding of conversion therapy impacts on Christian or Muslim teaching, the ability for parents to model biblical or faith-based values in the home, or individuals who voluntarily seek guidance regarding their sexual orientation or gender identity, then the law will have gone too far.

Labour already has a private members bill in the mix which is fundamentally flawed and dangerous. Parents would be criminalised and liable to six months imprisonment simply for affirming that their sons are boys and their daughters are girls.

If a child comes home from a presentation at school and says that they want to change their gender, a parent who lovingly discourages helping them embrace their natal sex will be guilty of a criminal offence. That’s how dangerous this bill is. Numerous reviews reveal the majority of children confused about their gender also suffer from diagnosed mental disorders, such as depression and anxiety – but this Labour and Greens policy will criminalise anyone who seeks or offers help for that aspect, including counsellors, spiritual leaders, pastors, youthworkers and teachers.

This 'ban' would turn parents into criminals, make counselling and faith-based support an illegal activity, and make it impossible for faith-based schools to teach that there are two genders.

A parent who promotes biological sex will be criminalised, but an activist who indoctrinates young children with the concept of ‘gender fluidity’ and ‘third gender’ will be celebrated. Gender conversion done by activists are fine if done by activists, but a crime when done by parents. This is not loving or compassionate towards children.

It will also be illegal for a therapist or other professional to counsel a child with gender dysphoria in a way that affirms their biology. They would be criminalised and liable to 12 months imprisonment!

To be absolutely clear, Family First would not support any therapy or counselling that is ‘forced’ on any individual BUT is not aware of any that is taking place. Even the politicians who have supported the law change have admitted that they're not aware of any cases.

But more importantly, the right of self-determination is a founding principle of the mental health profession – and for children, the wider whanau / family are part of this important values and support base.

In the future, it may become very dangerous for a child to express confusion of gender: no-one will be able legally to protect it from gender transitioning protocols that are backed by the state.

Labour and Greens want to legislate against the discussion and practice of alternatives to hormones, surgery and confusion.

Australian paediatrician Dr John Whitehall rightly asks:

“Isn’t the current ‘transitioning’ of a child to an alternate gender just another form of ‘conversion therapy’, using the old and abhorrent means of psychological pressure, hormones and surgery?”

What is most concerning is that while gender is supposedly ‘fluid’, it can only go in the direction that the activists approve of. The state will sanction any transition to any gender, as frequently and momentously as the client wishes, as long as the direction is away from that decreed by chromosomes.

Those who dare to seek inner freedom and healing will have nowhere to turn as a result of this proposed law by Labour & Greens.

Paidiske · Oct 8, 2020

Oh, there's that sort of sensationalist nonsense here too, but you can't believe that sort of stuff. When you look at the actual text of proposed bills it's nothing like that.

Carl Emerson · Oct 9, 2020

This definition is interesting...

Conversion therapy is defined by UK-based LGBT charity Stonewall as “any form of treatment or psychotherapy which aims to reduce or stop same-sex attraction or to suppress a person’s gender identity.”

And does it not follow that any believer who prays for someone wanting to be free of same sex attraction would be committing a crime?

Paidiske · Oct 9, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
This definition is interesting...

Conversion therapy is defined by UK-based LGBT charity Stonewall as “any form of treatment or psychotherapy which aims to reduce or stop same-sex attraction or to suppress a person’s gender identity.”

And does it not follow that any believer who prays for someone wanting to be free of same sex attraction would be committing a crime?

For the thousandth time, it would depend on what you did and how you did it.

Conversion therapy

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