Conversion Therapy Legislation seeks to ban genuine ministry.

[Carl Emerson]

Another heads up on this...

In New Zealand proposals to make it illegal to minister to folks with gender confusion.

Criminalising parents... again!

 

[PloverWing]

Discussion of a similar bill in Australia is here: In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching . @Paidiske made some important points in that discussion.

As I am not from New Zealand, I don't have a good knowledge of NZ law as compared to Australian law, so I don't know if the bill needs to be more carefully written.

 

[grumix8]

With gender confusion, oh G-d help us.

 

[SilverBear]

Another heads up on this...

In New Zealand proposals to make it illegal to minister to folks with gender confusion.

Criminalising parents... again!

the draft bill (link) specifically criminalizes conversion therapy engaged in by professionals. Professionals are specifically listed as:
"professional means a person who is one or more of the following:
(a) a health practitioner as defined in section 5(1) of the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act 2003:
(b) a teacher registered under the Education Act 1989:
(c) a social worker registered under the Social Workers Registration Act 2003"

No ministers or parents included

So it seems the author of your link is just engaging in false witness for the purpose of fear mongering

 

[Carl Emerson]

Maybe read it...

"This Bill creates an offence for any person who advertises, offers, or performs conversion therapy on another person.

 

[SilverBear]

Maybe read it...

"This Bill creates an offence for any person who advertises, offers, or performs conversion therapy on another person.

anyone who reads it would see you are purposefully misquoting by selectively citing the introductory material and not the actual proposed legislation.

is it not a crime in New Zealand to falsely claim or advertise that one is a professional therapist or for someone who is not licensed to engage in therapy?

 

[DragonFox91]

Silver's blowing smoke. The bill's very clear to me.

Silver, how do you think a judge would interpret it? How do you think the legislatures want judges to interpret it? How do you think the base of the legislature's constituents want it interpreted? What do you think the long-term effects of the bill would be?

Plus, IMO, it is criminalizing the parents b/c it highly limits their options for seeking a conversion therapist. Sometimes a professional is needed. Not just a biblical counselor or pastor or parents, but someone w/ more advanced training. The parents are SOL as are their children.

 

[SilverBear]

Silver's blowing smoke. The bill's very clear to me.

Silver, how do you think a judge would interpret it?

as written

Plus, IMO, it is criminalizing the parents b/c it highly limits their options for seeking a conversion therapist. Sometimes a professional is needed. Not just a biblical counselor or pastor or parents, but someone w/ more advanced training. The parents are SOL as are their children.

real professionals don't engage in harmful practices like conversion therapy

 

[PloverWing]

Plus, IMO, it is criminalizing the parents b/c it highly limits their options for seeking a conversion therapist.

Do you mean that it limits parents' options for seeking out a therapist who will attempt to change the child's sexual orientation or gender identity? If so, yes: The bill is intended to prohibit this.

 

[DragonFox91]

as written

The constituents & legislatures wouldn't be happy.

real professionals don't engage in harmful practices like conversion therapy

Is it for a politician to decide what's harmful?

Do you mean that it limits parents' options for seeking out a therapist who will attempt to change the child's sexual orientation or gender identity? If so, yes: The bill is intended to prohibit this.

Why?

 

[PloverWing]

Why?

This document gives some background information: https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...8/LGBT+conversion+therapy+in+Australia+v2.pdf . It's an Australian document, but it's useful even to those of us outside Australia.

 

[SilverBear]

The constituents & legislatures wouldn't be happy.

the legislators are the ones writing it ad approving it.

Is it for a politician to decide what's harmful?

its for the evidence to show and there is a mountain of evidence that shows conversion therapy is not just ineffective but actively harmful

Amy Przeworski, Emily Peterson, Alexandra Piedra. A systematic review of the efficacy, harmful effects, and ethical issues related to sexual orientation change efforts. Clinical Psychology: Science and Practice 2020.
Steven Meanley, et al Lifetime Exposure to Conversion Therapy and Psychosocial Health Among Midlife and Older Adult Men Who Have Sex With Men. The Gerontologist 2020
Haldeman, Douglas C. The practice and ethics of sexual orientation conversion therapy. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 1994
Christi R. McGeorge, Thomas Stone Carlson, Russell B. Toomey. An Exploration of Family Therapists' Beliefs about the Ethics of Conversion Therapy: The Influence of Negative Beliefs and Clinical Competence With Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Clients. Journal of Marital and Family Therapy 2015
Robert J. Cramer,Frank D. Golom,Charles T. LoPresto &Shalene M. Kirkley Weighing the Implications of Conversion Therapy Evidence: Empirical Assessment and Ethical journal of Ethics and Behavior Mar 2008
Douglas C. Haldeman Therapeutic Antidotes: Helping Gay and Bisexual Men Recover from Conversion Therapies J of Psychotherapy 2008
Alex R. Dopp. Treatment of Sexual Minority Youth: Ethical Considerations for Professionals in Psychology. Ethics & Behavior 2013
Madison Higbee, Eric R. Wright, Ryan M. Roemerman. Conversion Therapy in the Southern United States: Prevalence and Experiences of the Survivors. Journal of Homosexuality 2020
Jaco Van Zyl, Kathryn Nel, Saraswathie Govender. Reparative sexual orientation therapy effects on gay sexual identities. Journal of Psychology 2017
Julianne M. Serovich, Shonda M. Craft, Paula Toviessi, Rashmi Gangamma, Tiffany McDowell, Erika L. Grafsky. (2008) A Systematic Review of the Research Base on Sexual Reorientation Therapies. Journal of Marital and Family Therapy
Julianne M. Serovich, Shonda M. Craft, Paula Toviessi, Rashmi Gangamma, Tiffany McDowell, Erika L. Grafsky. A Systematic Review of the Research Base on Sexual Reorientation Therapies. Journal of Marital and Family Therapy 2008

and literally thousands more

Why?

see above

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Another heads up on this...

In New Zealand proposals to make it illegal to minister to folks with gender confusion.

Criminalising parents... again!

There is a fine line and it has been crossed many times through flesh driven therapeutics that caused adverse effects to the child. Parents need to deal with the situation in a loving manner rather than brain washing tactics. Blessings.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There is a fine line and it has been crossed many times through flesh driven therapeutics that caused adverse effects to the child. Parents need to deal with the situation in a loving manner rather than brain washing tactics. Blessings.

Yes I agree but politicians faithful to the philosophies of the UN are using the existence of these abuses to close down genuine ministry that seeks to address gender confusion from a loving and inspired motive. This is purely because they seek to push the deceptive 'gender by choice' philosophy which is in itself very damaging.

 

[SilverBear]

Yes I agree but politicians faithful to the philosophies of the UN are using the existence of these abuses to close down genuine ministry that seeks to address gender confusion from a loving and inspired motive. This is purely because they seek to push the deceptive 'gender by choice' philosophy which is in itself very damaging.

Who do you think is committing these abuses?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Here is an interesting poll result on this issue...

‘Conversion Therapy’ Ban Rejected by Kiwis - Poll

Who do you think is committing these abuses?

Frankly cases of abuse by fringe misguided church members are pretty rare but the few are given top slot by those who have the agenda to outlaw any help through the period of gender confusion which is becoming more common in this modern age.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Here is an interesting poll result on this issue...
‘Conversion Therapy’ Ban Rejected by Kiwis - Poll

I would have answered the questions in the poll summary much the same way, and I am opposed to conversion therapy - leastwise as defined in the US. They don't really address conversion therapy, per se but ask a lot of tangential questions.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I would have answered the questions in the poll summary much the same way, and I am opposed to conversion therapy - leastwise as defined in the US. They don't really address conversion therapy, per se but ask a lot of tangential questions.

That is because the term 'conversion therapy' is being used as a 'catch all' to ban any attempts to give support to those in gender confusion.

 

[SilverBear]

Here is an interesting poll result on this issue...

‘Conversion Therapy’ Ban Rejected by Kiwis - Poll

they didn't ask about conversion therapy or anything like it. The question asked was: "If a person is unsure about their sexual orientation or gender identity, should they be able to seek counselling support to determine their own direction in how they identify?”

Conversion therapy is NOT about individuals determining anything it is about attempts to actively change or suppress a person's orientation.

 

[SilverBear]

Frankly cases of abuse by fringe misguided church members are pretty rare but the few are given top slot by those who have the agenda to outlaw any help through the period of gender confusion which is becoming more common in this modern age.

Conversion therapy is almost exclusively religion based. So when Amy Przeworski and her associates studied the effacy and harmful effects of such therapy for their paper A systematic review of the efficacy, harmful effects, and ethical issues related to sexual orientation change efforts. Clinical Psychology: Science and Practice 2020 they went to organization engaged in conversion therapy. Specifically Restoration Path (AKA Love in Action), Courage International, North Star and JONAH. ANd that is where the found the abuse.