Conversing with Catholics

[Lybrah]

I was talking to a Roman Catholic the other day and I felt myself getting annoyed because this person was telling me things about Revelations that are wrong. For example, saying that the book of Revelations is what the Catholic mass is based on? What? I left behind the Catholic faith. I don't particularly want to go back. Anyway, the issue here is I get annoyed when talking to people to are wrong and insist they are right. I don't want to be like this. Any suggestions?

Also--- is Catholicism wrong? Catholics believe in Jesus and stuff, but in your opinion, what parts of their beliefs and rituals do you find erroneous or unnecessary?

 

[SkyWriting]

I was talking to a Roman Catholic the other day and I felt myself getting annoyed because this person was telling me things about Revelations that are wrong. For example, saying that the book of Revelations is what the Catholic mass is based on? What? I left behind the Catholic faith. I don't particularly want to go back. Anyway, the issue here is I get annoyed when talking to people to are wrong and insist they are right. I don't want to be like this. Any suggestions?

Also--- is Catholicism wrong? Catholics believe in Jesus and stuff, but in your opinion, what parts of their beliefs and rituals do you find erroneous or unnecessary?

None.
One of the best sermon's I ever heard was from a Cardinal and it was about how belief and faith in Jesus saves. I've forgiven them ever since that day.

 

[LoricaLady]

I was talking to a Roman Catholic the other day and I felt myself getting annoyed because this person was telling me things about Revelations that are wrong. For example, saying that the book of Revelations is what the Catholic mass is based on? What? I left behind the Catholic faith. I don't particularly want to go back. Anyway, the issue here is I get annoyed when talking to people to are wrong and insist they are right. I don't want to be like this. Any suggestions?

Also--- is Catholicism wrong? Catholics believe in Jesus and stuff, but in your opinion, what parts of their beliefs and rituals do you find erroneous or unnecessary?

If someone says something about Revelation, or anything else in the Bible, that is not true, simply ask them to show you where they are getting their Bible verses from, then show them your own Bible verses. With grace, of course.

I used to be Catholic. Then, at a bookstore, I felt led to buy a book called Conversations With Catholics. After i read that I knew I could never go to another Mass. It was obvious, for just one reason, that I had to choose whom to believe, the traditions of men from the RCC, or what the Bible actually says. To me the answer was obviously the Bible.

Perhaps reading that book will help you to witness. However it is prayer, and the Holy Spirit, that causes eyes to be opened.

 

[zippy2006]

I was talking to a Roman Catholic the other day and I felt myself getting annoyed because this person was telling me things about Revelations that are wrong. For example, saying that the book of Revelations is what the Catholic mass is based on? What? I left behind the Catholic faith. I don't particularly want to go back. Anyway, the issue here is I get annoyed when talking to people to are wrong and insist they are right. I don't want to be like this. Any suggestions?

Also--- is Catholicism wrong? Catholics believe in Jesus and stuff, but in your opinion, what parts of their beliefs and rituals do you find erroneous or unnecessary?

Here's a book that addresses the relation of Revelation to the Mass and is written by a Biblical scholar who converted to Catholicism from Presbyterianism: The Lamb's Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth. When Dr. Hahn began to convert he was studying Revelation and attending some Masses, at which time he began to notice lots of peculiar overlapping between the two. Whether or not Protestants accept the core thesis, they just don't seem to recognize the fact that Revelation is a highly liturgical book which forms the basis for many of the liturgies of Catholic Rites.

P.S. It is the book of "Revelation," not the book of "Revelations." Apokalupsis.

 

[Lybrah]

Here's a book that addresses the relation of Revelation to the Mass and is written by a Biblical scholar who converted to Catholicism from Presbyterianism: The Lamb's Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth. When Dr. Hahn began to convert he was studying Revelation and attending some Masses, at which time he began to notice lots of peculiar overlapping between the two. Whether or not Protestants accept the core thesis, they just don't seem to recognize the fact that Revelation is a highly liturgical book which forms the basis for many of the liturgies of Catholic Rites.

P.S. It is the book of "Revelation," not the book of "Revelations." Apokalupsis.

That is just the author's opinion. Revelation is about how the world ends.

 

[Albion]

I was talking to a Roman Catholic the other day and I felt myself getting annoyed because this person was telling me things about Revelations that are wrong. For example, saying that the book of Revelations is what the Catholic mass is based on? What? I left behind the Catholic faith. I don't particularly want to go back. Anyway, the issue here is I get annoyed when talking to people to are wrong and insist they are right. I don't want to be like this. Any suggestions?

Also--- is Catholicism wrong? Catholics believe in Jesus and stuff, but in your opinion, what parts of their beliefs and rituals do you find erroneous or unnecessary?

I think I see some of what is frustrating you. The fact is that many members simply parrot what they were told to think by their church and will not enter into any actual "give and take" that explores the basis for doctrine X or Y or the validity of such doctrines.

 

[Gell]

It is good to note verses Galatians 1:8 and 2 Corinthians 11:4
The truth is salvation is found in Christ alone, there is no other Mediator.
Here are some very good resources about catholicism.

 

[Albion]

That is just the author's opinion. Revelation is about how the world ends.

And Scott Hahn is not particularly persuasive anyway. His view of Protestantism is an exercise in stereotypes and his writings mainly reiterate what any person who has attended an inquirers class pursuant to joining Hahn's new church would be told to believe.

 

[Lybrah]

I think I see some of what is frustrating you. The fact is that many members simply parrot what they were told to think by their church and will not enter into any actual "give and take" that explores the basis for doctrine X or Y or the validity of such doctrines.

Maybe he found some ways that the Catholic mass could be like Revelation, but I have read the book, and books of other scholars, and Revelation is widely assumed to be about the end of the world. Throughout the bible there are many other prophecies that are also mentioned in Revelation as well.

 

[dzheremi]

There are many different ways to read St. John's revelation. This was in fact one of the most contested books of the NT, to the point that it is still technically (not necessarily in practice) not a part of the canon of the Syriac churches, as it was excluded from the Pešitto (the 5th century Syriac translation of the Bible that is the standard in churches which use that language). The Church of the East/Persian Church/Nestorians, having left communion with the wider Church following the Council of Ephesus (431), kept the 22-book NT that they had inherited, whereas the Syriac Orthodox also use the Pešitto, but by the latter half of the fifth century/early sixth century had added the "missing" five books to the canon. (Though from what I understand they still do not appear in standard editions of the corpus, so I dunno if they have separate books with these five in them or what.)

To this day, it is not read from publicly at all in the Eastern Orthodox tradition, while in my own Coptic Orthodox tradition -- quite atypically -- it is given its own night during Holy Week where we read through the entire thing, known as "Apocalypse Night" (Abu Ghalimses/Bright Saturday). That service is full of prophetic warnings and utterances (the response during the reading is "He who has ears let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches"), so I don't think we view it as a liturgical book as the Roman Catholic Church does, or if so, certainly not in exactly the same way.

So I don't know if this is one of those things is necessarily best described as "wrong", in the sense that if Roman Catholics base their liturgy around it (or are taught that they do), then that is the case. You can still disagree, of course, that this is a proper reading or understanding of the text, but even if it's improper to you, that's still what it is (it's still an understanding, either way). That's one of the examples of why you're not a Roman Catholic, I'd imagine, so that you don't have to agree to such an understanding to begin with, in the same way that they don't have to agree with you, or neither of you have to agree with me, etc. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Lybrah]

And Scott Hahn is not particularly persuasive anyway. His view of Protestantism is stereotypical and his writings mainly reiterate what any person who has attended an inquirers class pursuant to joining his new church would be told to believe.

Yeah, I don't know what it is about me. The person with whom I was conversing must have read this book by Dr. Hahn. I can handle debating with atheists, and those of other religions, but for some reason, I get really really annoyed when I speak with other Christians/Catholics who are wrong and come off as if they are the ones who are correct. Particularly Catholics---I was on a date with a guy one time who lost interest in me the second I revealed I wasn't Catholic. He acted like I was some sort of heretic, and claimed that the 12 disciples of Christ were Catholics! Even though Catholicism did not even exist in Jesus' time.

 

[zippy2006]

That is just the author's opinion. Revelation is about how the world ends.

How do you know if it is merely the author's opinion if you haven't even read the book?

I find it ironic that you quickly dismissed an entire field of liturgical theology based on a short conversation you had with someone and your own personal understanding. Your personal understanding does not even include the name of the book in question (i.e. "Revelation" rather than "Revelations"), and dismisses all interpretations beyond, "Revelation is about how the world ends." I just think..., "Wow!"

 

[Lybrah]

How do you know if it is merely the author's opinion if you haven't even read the book?

I find it ironic that you quickly dismissed an entire field of liturgical theology based on a short conversation you had with someone and your own personal understanding. Your personal understanding does not even include the name of the book in question (i.e. "Revelation" rather than "Revelations"), and dismisses all interpretations beyond, "Revelation is about how the world ends." I just think..., "Wow!"

I'm not saying he's wrong---but he's ONE author who came to this conclusion. And Revelations is about what is to come.

 

[mmsyther]

RC's simply believe that the righteousness of Christ is first infused to them . However , they must cooperate with God to further their salvation. According to a Roman Catholic Christ's crucifixion enables us to be right with God but we must now continue our salvation through our works . The works according to them didn't save them Christ did. This view makes a mockery of the atonement. Christ justified every believer on the cross . They are now righteous as Christ himself. Our works have nothing to do with our salvation. We do not cooperate with God to continue the work of salvation . A Roman Catholic who believes his works have anything to do with his right standing with God rejects Christ perfect work of atonement.

 

[JAM2b]

I don't have a lot of knowledge about the Catholic denomination...or if they are even called a denomination. I was taught when I was growing up not to seek out information on any other Christian denominations besides Southern Baptist, even other kinds of Baptist, because "there's no telling what they are wrong about and can lead you astray."

I grew up and got over that. I explore a lot of denominations and even some other religions and cults just to get an understanding of what's out there and the human psyche when it comes to beliefs.

I don't know a lot about Catholicism because I haven't felt the need to dig deeply into it. There are basic beliefs and practices that I don't believe in and feel very firmly about. Plus I could never go to a Catholic church because statues and pictures of people freak me out, serious phobia.

I have had friends who are Catholic, and I have received care from Catholic affiliated hospitals and nuns who were there serving various roles. I've spoken one on one with a Catholic priest about something totally unrelated to religious beliefs. For the most part they seem like other Christians, except I know a lot of them who cuss shamelessly, even the priest. I have no doubt in their faith however, I don't like their practices. I think some of the ways they do things are a great distraction from what is really needed. It seems to add a bunch of fluff that is unnecessary at best, and leads to idolatry at worst.

Most Catholics I know don't talk about it a lot because it's either private for them, they have their faith and life compartmentalized, or being in the predominantly protestant South they get verbally shot down a lot. The few who have spoken have said WAY more than was needed or wanted to be heard. Wow. So many details. My brain checked out within the first few paragraphs. It also seems once they started, they didn't want to stop or allow anyone to say anything, ask questions, or present a different perspective on the Scriptures. These things could be (and probably are) more linked to individual personality than to overall church practice.

It does feel frustrating sometimes. I get very frustrated when direct links to Scripture are not given to support what they say. The ones who have spoken have talked a lot about things that are not in Scripture, but don't mention much from Scripture. For me, if I can't clearly back it up by Scripture, then I don't think I should share it as a truth. But, they are going to believe and share what they want. They have the right. And it is a God given right to everyone of every denomination. God allows everyone to choose. We can't have a world where some are allowed to share what they believe and others are not. Things don't turn out well when people try to control what is shared as far as religion goes.

So, the handful of times I have been faced with this, I just let them talk until they are done. I don't agree with them or support them in it, however, I don't lash out or reject them personally. I just let the conversation die out on its own, unless their is a reason to walk away.

 

[zippy2006]

I'm not saying he's wrong---but he's ONE author who came to this conclusion. And Revelations is about what is to come.

Just to warn you, I am not going to continue this conversation too much longer, but you are committing some very basic logical errors.

For example, you say that "Revelations (sic) is about what is to come." Okay, so what? According to your own words in your OP, "[A Catholic I met said] that the book of Revelations is what the Catholic mass is based on."

Just supposing for a minute that Revelation is exclusively eschatological, why would that prevent Catholics from basing the Mass on Revelation? Revelation can be about the end of the world and Catholics can still base the Mass on Revelation. There is no contradiction.

There are numerous instances in Revelation where John relates to God in various ways (beginning in chapter 4). For example, there are trumpets, acclamations, incense, public praise, etc. A basic implicit theme in Revelation is the relation between heaven and earth, between the divine assembly and the world of men. That is precisely what Catholics believe happens at Mass: heaven and earth touch. Why wouldn't Catholics incorporate elements of Revelation into the Mass?

To take one concrete example, a very prominent title for Jesus in the book of Revelation is "Lamb of God." It occurs 28 times. The only other place in the Bible where Jesus is called this is the Gospel of John where is occurs twice. Go to a Catholic Mass and you will hear those words used at least four times. Consider the dialogue that takes place directly after the sign of peace:

People: "Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us."
"Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us."
"Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, grant us peace."

Priest, holding up the Eucharistic host, "Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who takes away the sins of the world. Blessed are those called to the Supper of the Lamb."​

 

[Albion]

Some good points there IMHO, but what the Mass is BASED ON...

...and the fact that there are a number of symbols, terminology, and adornments, etc. which have been borrowed from Revelation FOR USE DURING the celebration of the Mass (as you explained)...

...are two quite different things.

 

[dzheremi]

I would imagine that in a textual sense the Roman rite is based on earlier forms of the same, in the same way that the core of the anaphora of St. Basil as used by the Coptic Orthodox dates back to the fourth century, but has been considerably elaborated upon in the intervening centuries. I think that most liturgies as they are prayed today might date back to about the 17th century, and that tends to be so among the more liturgically conservative churches, like the OO and the EO. (The RCC is not one of those.)

 

[TuxAme]

As a Catholic, we, too, often get annoyed when speaking with people who are wrong but insist they are right. The feeling is mutual. This is why we continue to study so that we help others see where they're in error.

Now, the idea that Revelation is "about" the Mass- it's about a lot more, for sure, but it gives us a glimpse of heavenly worship, and so we imitate it. We cling to this manner of worship which the first Christians were accustomed to. Primarily, in the belief that our liturgy must include the unbloody sacrifice of the Lamb of God, and in our carrying it out through the priesthood which the same Lamb has gifted us.

 

[Hammster]

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