Conversations with Staff in Married Forum

[WalksWithChrist]

Before I get to my subject, I'd like to ask if we are still allowed to have open discussions with staff here in the Married forum like we used to?

ETA: I'd like to discuss the topic of not advising members to divorce. I saw the thread about it that I was directed to, but it is closed.

I read the language of the policy and feel like it will be counter-productive. It seems to me like directing someone dealing with a rough marriage to another non-marriage forum ties our hands here quite a bit. It seems like we need to ask what the purpose of this forum is if we can't talk about aspects of marriage that are serious in nature. There are Biblical ground for divorce and they should be considered when advising someone. I can think of a whole host of situations that might merit a divorce where there is no physical violence.

I'm only interested in an open discussion about this, not drama.

 

[A New Dawn]

Closing for review.

 

[A New Dawn]

I'm reopening this thread for discussion.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I'm reopening this thread for discussion.

OP has been edited to add content.

 

[Avniel]

I think it's a good rule particularly when the OP states she wants to save her marriage. Also I don't believe divorce should be something people decide while being pushed in a direction by others. Divorce should be a choice that a person makes on their own. Imagine if you tell her to get a divorce and he changes his life around and gets into therapy and she regrets the choice that you advised her to make. Would you hold any responsibility for advising her so?

I like the rule unless someone is already wanting a divorce.

I just find anything else reckless.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

I think it's a good rule particularly when the OP states she wants to save her marriage. Also I don't believe divorce should be something people decide while being pushed in a direction by others. Divorce should be a choice that a person makes on their own. Imagine if you tell her to get a divorce and he changes his life around and gets into therapy and she regrets the choice that you advised her to make. Would you hold any responsibility for advising her so?

I like the rule unless someone is already wanting a divorce.

I just find anything else reckless.

Wouldn't the opposite also be true, then? Isn't the decision to remain married equally that person's decision that should be theirs alone? What if staying married is advocated and the person decides to remain married and then he escalates into an abuser. Would you hold any responsibility for advising her to remain married?

Just because people might advise divorce doesn't mean the person seeking advice has not made the decision on their own. I think it's a little silly to assume that anyone would make a huge life decision like that based solely on the advice of internet strangers.

The thing about the policy of not advocating divorce that bothers me is that not everyone who is Christian agrees with that particular belief about divorce. Not everyone who is Christian is a Fundamentalist or Evangelical. There should be room at Christian Forums for all sorts of Christians, not just the ones who agree with the Evangelical/Fundamentalist interpretation of Scripture. We should be allowed to offer advice, information and encouragement based on what each of us actually believes. We should be free to incorporate our real world experiences and expertise even if it goes against Evangelical/Fundamentalist mindsets. IMHO.

 

[Chaplain David]

To help facilitate this discussion, here is the excerpt about Divorce from the Statement of Purpose:

Statement of Purpose: Married Couples - updated 3/7/2012

Divorce is not to be promoted in this forum except in cases where individuals are in physical danger. Those who are contemplating divorce due to extenuating circumstances may be able to find support in the recovery forums.​

 

[Inkachu]

I personally feel that we should be free to say whatever we feel led to say. The hearer is then responsible for what they do with it; not the person giving the advice. Nobody here will "make" or "force" anybody to do anything. If they're coming here for thoughts, opinions, and advice, we should be free to give it without censoring ourselves (as long as it's done in an adult manner, respectfully, etc, of course). It's not the fault of the person giving the advice, if the person asking for advice, is so easily swayed that they can't make up their own mind and would just blindly do what someone online tells them to do. Of course, people who come here are often in a place of vulnerability, and we should try to be sensitive to that, and not just throw hasty words around without giving serious weight and consideration the topic at hand. Telling someone "I would get a divorce" is not saying "YOU should get a divorce". Big difference. I'm always careful to say what I might do, and then advise the person to seek counseling first, and possibly separate temporarily if I feel they're in real danger. I never just say "you need to get a divorce". I would never say that.

 

[Puffinstuff]

It's not the fault of the person giving the advice, if the person asking for advice, is so easily swayed that they can't make up their own mind and would just blindly do what someone online tells them to do.

Exaclty! IMHO.If you said "go jump off a bridge" if they did it ?I mean really.Where does it end?

 

[ValleyGal]

I think it would also be important to distinguish between separation and divorce. While I might suggest someone separate for a time, I rarely, if ever, recommend divorce - unless the person is unsafe, in which case I will also recommend accessing a local safe house.

This is the marriage forum, but there is a divorce sub-forum where people can go talk about divorce. Maybe if we think someone should consider divorce, we could recommend they post in the divorce sub-forum and talk about the possibilities there?

 

[PassionateOne]

I post here to see what other's 'opinions' are....if I had a question about 'whatever'.

I would hope others do the same if they have a concern or question & if we share what we think about 'whatever' situation? It is all taken in account and with 'a grain of salt'.

 

[Puffinstuff]

I think it would also be important to distinguish between separation and divorce. While I might suggest someone separate for a time, I rarely, if ever, recommend divorce - unless the person is unsafe, in which case I will also recommend accessing a local safe house.

This is the marriage forum, but there is a divorce sub-forum where people can go talk about divorce. Maybe if we think someone should consider divorce, we could recommend they post in the divorce sub-forum and talk about the possibilities there?

But wouldn't that be in a round about way suggesting divorce?Here we talk about "marriage" but in your case maybe you should go to the "divorce forum"?I'm thinking whats the difference?

 

[ValleyGal]

But wouldn't that be in a round about way suggesting divorce?Here we talk about "marriage" but in your case maybe you should go to the "divorce forum"?I'm thinking whats the difference?

Well, I was not quite thinking like that. I was thinking more along the lines of "If you are willing to discuss separation or divorce as an option, you might consider opening a thread in the divorce sub-forum." Leaves it tentative, and in the other person's ball court, and I'm just thinking about respecting the forum RoC and still be able to let them know maybe they should or could consider separation or divorce as an option.

 

[MessianicMommy]

To help facilitate this discussion, here is the excerpt about Divorce from the Statement of Purpose:

Statement of Purpose: Married Couples - updated 3/7/2012

Divorce is not to be promoted in this forum except in cases where individuals are in physical danger. Those who are contemplating divorce due to extenuating circumstances may be able to find support in the recovery forums.​

As someone who has friends and family in abusive situations, I would like to point out that not all abuse is physical, and not all abuse points towards a direction of physical danger.

Someone who wishes to get out of an abusive situation will make several attempts to leave before they are successful.

Having someone help show them that their situation is abusive does help in that situation towards health of the abuser (if they are mentally capable and willing to get help from a counselor who specializes in abuser rehabilitation), and towards their health.

Many times, the scars are on the inside where no one sees. Many times the abuse is sexual in nature and are not "physical" (as in beating). Gaslighting for example is a real situation where someone would be advised to get out before their mental health gets to such a place that they cannot help themselves any longer.

Redirecting to a recovery area isn't always helpful. It seems to people who are searching for help as if people really don't care, or the peers they should be getting help for are just giving them the cold shoulder and passing them off to someone else where they will have to try and explain the situation all over again.

Explaining just once is so hard, but trying again - that could set back their freedom many years.

 

[Inkachu]

It also doesn't help if the divorce area (which I know nothing about, sorry) is as "dead" as some of the other lesser-visited areas. If someone is in dire need of advice or a listening ear, and their post sits there for a week or two... *shrug* I know how that feels. I posted something in one of the parenting forums a while ago and it's still got no replies, which kinda sucks. One more reason we should be free to discuss more topics in more areas.

 

[HannahT]

I have to agree with you MM.

James 3:3 When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. 4 Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. 5 Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

7 All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and sea creatures are being tamed and have been tamed by mankind, 8 but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

Abuse is a pattern of behavior, and not just having a bad day...thus being jerk on occasion.

Its also not something people like to talk about, and normally are whisked away elsewhere. It does make them (victims/individuals) feel dirty, or give them the impression that they should ashamed of something.

I guess I don't grasp why some groups feel using the tools of separation/divorce for a matter of safety is seen as 'promotion' of those things. It would seem the promotion would be for the safety and well-being of the individual instead.

It doesn't have to be polarized in this sense, but sadly the tradition is to do just that.

If the recovery section or divorce section doesn't get the traffic that the subject needs to be given? I think something needs to be rethought there. You maybe sending a message that you may not have thought about.

Sadly, victims don't step out that often. When they do you need to jump on it right away. I realize some people may not feel a thread on an internet forum could have that effect, but they would be surprised.

If this is STILL to uncomfortable? I would hook up with some faith ministries that deal with abuse, and just be honest. We aren't capable of dealing with this type of circumstances in a way that would do you justice, but may we offer you an awesome ministry that is willing, waiting for you.

lol something more than the mod hat would seem more appropriate!

 

[ValleyGal]

My question would be, can we talk about abuse, abusive situations and impossible marriages without actually advocating divorce? The rule says we can't "promote" divorce. Is it "promotion" by talking about divorce in the context of abusive situations? If we talk about it as an option, I would not think it's "promoting" it, but rather considering it as an option for those unliveable cases that some people have.

What is "promotion"?

 

[A New Dawn]

The staff here decided that one can go anywhere and find advice that promotes divorce. This site is geared towards a Christian POV, and many Christians look to the Bible for guidance. The Bible clearly speaks against divorce except for in very specific circumstances, hence the stance we took in creating that particular guideline in the SoP.

I can say, at present, we have no inclination to change the rule. We have discussed all the issues involved in making the decision.

 

[A New Dawn]

I guess I don't grasp why some groups feel using the tools of separation/divorce for a matter of safety is seen as 'promotion' of those things. It would seem the promotion would be for the safety and well-being of the individual instead.

The guideline was posted above, I will copy it here.

Statement of Purpose: Married Couples - updated 3/7/2012

Divorce is not to be promoted in this forum except in cases where individuals are in physical danger. Those who are contemplating divorce due to extenuating circumstances may be able to find support in the recovery forums.​

The highlighted portion speaks to your concern. It would be helpful if people don't make more of it than it is.

 

[LinkH]

I think that rule was instituted after a poster advised someone who had been unfaithful to her husband to leave her husband who had been good to her and wanted to forgive her because she had willingly gotten married when she was young, but her mother was rather insistent that she married. She was also on drugs a lot during that time.

Divorce is a really big deal, and anyone who has been through one or your parents have been through one when you were young can tell you how painful it can be. Sometimes, comments on this forum can really influence people, whether we realize it or not.

And consider what we are doing. Someone posts a message from their side of the story. A few times one spouse has posted something and the other spouse came in and pointed out the rest of the fact, a hidden emotional affair, pornography, or whatever it was. We are dealing with one side of the story, usually, which may not be true, and based on that, posters advise divorce. Then the person can tell themselves, "It's okay to get a divorce because all the posters on 'Christians forums' said it was okay, and that's Christian so it must be okay."

Even when it comes to abuse, the term has grown in usage to include verbal abuse, and even things that are not abuse like having gender specific roles in the home according to some definitions. Someone looking to justify himself or herself could label their spouse as an abuser to get sympathy and get posters to tell him or her what they want to hear. Then posters naively recommend divorce or some other drastic action. Doesn't it make sense to encourage couples to go to a pastor or counselor who can hear both sides of the story or someone who has training in the issues they are facing.

If did change the policy, and wanted to put some stipulations on it, they could say you can advise generically when someone could divorce but you have to back up what you say with scripture, and allow some discussion and disagreement on the topic. We don't want 20 divorce debate threads in the forum.

Btw, is it okay to have an open dialogue with staff about whether it appropriate to encourage wives to obey the teachings of scripture directed at wives? There are ways to write guidelines to enable posters to bring it up without it turning into a debate.