Contrary to popular belief, contraception is not an intrinsic evil.

[MKJ]

Ugh! I will try to have a forgiving heart and attribute it to ignorance rather than misogyny.

But it makes me wonder in what ways the "Fathers" think of women as "surrogates" today.

It wasn't an unreasonable idea really. They thought the sperm had a little man in it, while the womb provided a home and the menstrual flow fed the baby, which is why pregnant women didn't menstruate. With no better evidence it seems a sensible enough idea.

 

[MKJ]

I thought the purpose behind no contraception was partly in Jeremiah and Psalms...
That GOD has created each of us before we hit the womb - aka - we were His vision - His thought - His Fiat and we must exist because He determines we must exist.
I thought this was the morality of no contraception.

If that was true, even abstaining could be sinful if you were "meant" to have a child, or choosing not to marry when God had deemed you should marry and have children.

God creating us before we were conceived doesn't mean that our actions are decided ahead of time - that would be a sort of Calvinist perspective. God also sees ahead of time who will be a terrible sinner, and even accounts for that in his plans, but that does not mean he caused the person to sin. Judas, for example, was an important part of God's plan, but God did not force him to act. Rather, God foresaw what Judas would freely do even before he was born. In the same way, God can know us even before our parents have freely decided to marry, or freely decided to have sex at one particular moment. If they hadn't done those things, God would not have foreseen that happening.

 

[WarriorAngel]

If that was true, even abstaining could be sinful if you were "meant" to have a child, or choosing not to marry when God had deemed you should marry and have children.

God creating us before we were conceived doesn't mean that our actions are decided ahead of time - that would be a sort of Calvinist perspective. God also sees ahead of time who will be a terrible sinner, and even accounts for that in his plans, but that does not mean he caused the person to sin. Judas, for example, was an important part of God's plan, but God did not force him to act. Rather, God foresaw what Judas would freely do even before he was born. In the same way, God can know us even before our parents have freely decided to marry, or freely decided to have sex at one particular moment. If they hadn't done those things, God would not have foreseen that happening.

It has been said - if one chooses to marry - one should be open.

BUT once we drop the bomb that rape is a cause for ER contraception - the whole contraception battle will only widen the parameters to include abortions on babies of rape.

It's just something that may lead ppl down that path.

 

[WarriorAngel]

also the fathers thought sperm contained a whole person
and the uterus was just s place for it to grow
so that is why they thought contraception = abortion
now we have better knowledge of science and we know that not all contraceptives cause mini abortions
so when people quote the fathers and the didache and stuff i think they need to take that stuff in context
sure they said some things were wrong, but their reasoning wss false so its dishonest to use thhat as justification
but now since we know science we know the actual reasons why some contraception is evil to use
mini abortions

Where did you get this - mistaken theory?

I know what the Father's have said - it is because someone blocks the life from entering that they sin and the wife is used as a harlot - because they dont want children.

 

[Elysium]

Where did you get this - mistaken theory?

I know what the Father's have said - it is because someone blocks the life from entering that they sin and the wife is used as a harlot - because they dont want children.

its not mistaken
read thomas aquinas

 

[Fantine]

It wasn't an unreasonable idea really. They thought the sperm had a little man in it, while the womb provided a home and the menstrual flow fed the baby, which is why pregnant women didn't menstruate. With no better evidence it seems a sensible enough idea.

But this was not a universally held idea, so obvious a basic bias towards men had some part in their beliefs:

Friedrich Engels, among others studying historical groups, formed the notion that some contemporary primitive peoples did not grasp the link between sexual intercourse and pregnancy.[citation needed] Research indicated that sexual intercourse occurred from early ages and pregnancy only occurred much later, seemingly unrelated to the sexual activity. He proposed that these cultures had no clear notion of paternity, according to this hypothesis; women produced children mysteriously, without necessary links to the man or men with whom they had sex. When realization of paternity occurred, according to the hypothesis, men acted to claim a power to monopolize women and claim their offspring as possessions and patriarchy began.

 

[MikeK]

Uh, yeah. The ECFs knew how babies were made, Fantine. There's a reason why the virgin birth was seen as something spectacular.

 

[WarriorAngel]

its not mistaken
read thomas aquinas

Go back earlier in history and you will see it is according to what i said. That the couple who didnt want children - the husband was forcing his wife to be a harlot - and much more.
To kill before a seed [notice not a tiny baby - but a seed] could be planted.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Ah, Friedrich Engels, everyone's favourite co-founder and co-creator of Communism with his friend and pal, Karl Marx . . .

 

[MikeK]

Ah, Friedrich Engels, everyone's favourite co-founder and co-creator of Communism with his friend and pal, Karl Marx . . .

Respect, man. Dude had a seriously awesome beard.

 

[FearlessFreep]

That is true, but the Catholic Church is also guilty of quite a few missteps (Which begs the question if the Holy Spirit is still present and leads in the Vatican) and some in the congregation are anything but saintly.

No matter which church or denomination you go to you will find sinners. The thing about the Catholic Church that's unique isn't the fact that she has sinners, it's that she's the only Church founded by Christ. She's the only one with all the sacraments and the fullness of truth.