Contradictions

[Resha Caner]

You are trying to turn this into a false dilemma and absolve God of his role in choosing what to do with us.

No, I'm not. Actually, I'm saying that this issue of accountability is getting in the way, so I'll concede it. I'll concede to you that for this discussion we can assume God is responsible for all pain (sin or not).

So, now what? You haven't proposed to me anything that sounds feasible. It's all very high-level and doesn't consider the consequences of trying to implement such things. Some examples ...

Erm...it's trivial to notice that it's finite at the very least. Not least because they'll die eventually and won't be suffering from it in the next life.

What if it affects what choice they make for the next life? Then its impact is eternal.

No, he doesn't have to rule out all pain. Only that which matches up with what he calls sin ...

You're thinking too restrictively here, I believe - that sin is a list of 10 things (or 613, whatever the number) and nothing more. Sin can be both an act and a state, and I think you are only referring to the act. Sin, as a state, simply means imperfection. So, to prevent a state of sin, God must keep us perfect. I can't think of a cause of pain that couldn't possibly cause an imperfection. So, it seems to me he has to eliminate all pain ... and, consequently all choice.

It pleases him knowing that his creation is unerringly going to reject him and end up being tormented forever?

Well, you know that's not how I see it, so I'm not sure this even needs a response.

Nope. There are plenty of people who simply don't have a convincing personal experience of God ...

I see you added the qualifier "convincing." I made my concession. Can I request you to make one as well? Let's assume everyone has an experience of God in this life.

But if many people got to the next life, and realised their mistake - given that many people would have made that mistake honestly, would forgiveness still be an option by that point?

There we go. Forgiveness. This is my point in allowing the concession. I don't see that it changes anything. I think the answer is pretty much the same as what the Bible already says.

1) So we're assuming God is accountable. If so, should he be punished? If so, it seems more than fair that he take the combined punishment of what all of us together would receive for our sins.

2) Should God offer us a "repaired" world where all these nasty things aren't going to happen? If so, it seems "heaven" is a workable concept for that. And it seems God has said that he'll forgive everything and all you have to do to get a ticket is have faith in him.

3) Should God allow those who don't want heaven to go their own way?

It's #3 here where we seem to get stuck. I'm saying he does allow that. But what would "going their own way" mean? I think there are only 2 options:

A) Make gods of those people who go their own way so they're capable of avoiding what happens in this world.

What would that mean? Given this faulty god I've conceded, would he even be capable of such a thing? If he is, we don't want Greek gods do we? Those petty, squabbling, very "human" gods. We want a God-like god (though I suspect you actually want something even better than a God-like god). As I calculate it, it's not possible to have more than one God-like god. If we have multiple beings that perfect, infinite, etc. they would, in the end, be identical. They would be only one god.

So, it just doesn't seem like an option to me, but I'll hear you out on this. This is more or less the option you're trying to argue for. I realize you're probably not proposing that God make you a god, but I need better details on how that would actually be accomplished.

B) They'll go their way with only their finite abilities to rule their new world. They won't even have God to enforce F = ma for them. They'll have to do that as well. It sounds like that would be a pretty nasty place to me. Shouldn't God warn people about that? I mean, what word should he use to let them know? Maybe "hell"?

 

[Resha Caner]

Yes, the ones which have been proven.

Well, as much as our resident atheist scientists disagree with me on many things, I don't think even they would agree with your "proven" statement.

Science has proven to be much more trustworthy than any one particular interpretation of the Bible.

They probably would agree with this, but I disagree.

Reason, evidence, etc.

I consider that an empty answer. Much the same way you react to me if I respond, "faith, grace, etc." I don't see that reason or evidence has discovered the absolute truth you're talking about.

God didn't create hell?

No. That's the same as asking, "Didn't God create evil?" If you want a longer answer, you'll have to catch up on what I've said to Gadarene.

 

[Paradoxum]

Well, as much as our resident atheist scientists disagree with me on many things, I don't think even they would agree with your "proven" statement.

You're being pedantic. Nothing can be proven 100%, more like 99.9%, or whatever it happens to be.

They probably would agree with this, but I disagree.

Science has built the world we live in, while Christians still have the same arguments they have always had. Are we predestined or not? Some say yes, some say no.

Even if you believe in demons, it would be stupid to say all mental illness if caused by demons. Science has proven that wrong, no matter what someone's interpretation of the Bible is. So you can live in fairyland, or have a reasonable faith.

I consider that an empty answer. Much the same way you react to me if I respond, "faith, grace, etc." I don't see that reason or evidence has discovered the absolute truth you're talking about.

It wasn't meant to contain alot. It's too much hard work to give a longer answer.

No. That's the same as asking, "Didn't God create evil?" If you want a longer answer, you'll have to catch up on what I've said to Gadarene.

So hell isn't a place? Since if it was God would have to have created it.

 

[Resha Caner]

You're being pedantic.

There are people who use "proven" to mean 100%, so it's not pedantic to push a point until clarification is achieved.

Science has built the world we live in, while Christians still have the same arguments they have always had. Are we predestined or not? Some say yes, some say no.

Last I checked, it was people who built it. While necessary, too much is claimed in the name of science. And those Christians are pesky, aren't they? I mean, imagine believing that if God is perfect then things don't change.

Even if you believe in demons, it would be stupid to say all mental illness if caused by demons. Science has proven that wrong, no matter what someone's interpretation of the Bible is. So you can live in fairyland, or have a reasonable faith.

You're over-simplifying. In most cases what doctors know how to do is treat symptoms. Identifying cause is more difficult. Trust me. I've dealt with people who suffer from mental illnesses. I'm not such a moron that if medicine can cure something (or mitigate the symptoms) that I'm going to ignore it because I believe in demons. Neither am I going to ignore the possibility of what demons can do.

It wasn't meant to contain alot. It's too much hard work to give a longer answer.

Yes, I'm feeling a similar reluctance to put much effort into this.

So hell isn't a place? Since if it was God would have to have created it.

The short answer is no. Again, if you want some effort put into the answer let me know when you've read the other posts.