Contraceptives

[Benedicta00]

Christian,

You have never heard anyone talk like that when it comes to having children?

You should hear the remarks that I get when people find out I have 5 kids. I get treated as if something is wrong with me, I get talk to as if I am stupid, like I don’t know how children are conceived, and pitted (which really makes me mad) and am constantly asked, ‘how many more your going to have?’ In a not so nice tone.

My last pregnancies, I refused to even tell anyone I was pregnant, not even my family members because I was tired of hearing their mouth. The last pregnancy, I never told anyone, anything at all even though you could see I was pregnant. In the beginning if someone would ask, I would say "no" and when it really became obvious I still wouldn’t mention it, and finally in the 8 months I told everyone I didn’t say anything because of how the act, if they wouldn’t act like idiots I would tell them.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Christian,

You have never heard anyone talk like that when it comes to having children?

You should hear the remarks that I get when people find out I have 5 kids. I get treated as if something is wrong with me, I get talk to as if I am stupid, like I don’t know how children are conceived, and pitted (which really makes me mad) and am constantly asked, ‘how many more your going to have?’ In a not so nice tone.

My last pregnancies, I refused to even tell anyone I was pregnant, not even my family members because I was tired of hearing their mouth. The last pregnancy, I never told anyone, anything at all even though you could see I was pregnant. In the beginning if someone would ask, I would say "no" and when it really became obvious I still wouldn’t mention it, and finally in the 8 months I told everyone I didn’t say anything because of how the act, if they wouldn’t act like idiots I would tell them.

Try to look at that as a form of Christian persecution, Michelle. I wish I would have had a better understanding of the Church teaching on human life when I was younger. I don't know if I would have any more kids at this time, but I would have taken a different approach to a lot of things had I known.

Michelle

 

[marciadietrich]

I am just coming in to this dialogue and I do not know how much time I can devote to it. I have discussed this in two other threads and I am almost afraid to go another round. That said, let me first say I use NFP, I am 32 with 6 children, ages 11 years to 6 months. I know many people who use NFP and many more who use ABC. I find the exact opposite of Marcia's findings. I find for the most part that ABC'ers are selfish. I find they are almost completely, if not totally closed to life!

Hello Fireman's Wife ,

First I find some of the NFP proponents rhetoric to be extreme. Totally closed to life? Now if someone has no children, never plans to have any children, would absolutely have an abortion if they were pregnant ... now THAT is totally closed to life. The vast majority of married Christian ABC'ers do not fit that definition of being totally closed to life. I don't think people who are not married or not Christian can be directly compared because then there are factors beyond ABC involved. Most are not even almost completely closed to life. They might have a mindset to stop at a particular number, but most would gladly have another child if that is what God gave them.

The majority of ABC'ers I know want material things over babies. It is as simple as that. ... Some say they cannot afford children because their SUV payment is too high. ... As far as ABC'ers not thinking they are "anti-baby", I do not think most think much at all, except about themselves.

The reasons I hear for NFP use nearly always deal with not being able to afford another child at the time (which is often a concern of ABC'ers as well) putting off a first child so that they can finish college, get to know each other first, graduate school or to pay off bills - and even the fears that they have to plan around NFP to really enjoy their honeymoon. If the wife is in graduate school and no kids yet I'd guess there is going to be the next excuse of that she needs to start her career. I think Michelle and other women who have concerns due to multiple c-sections is the most serious reason I've heard for NFP use. No, I know of one case they have a child with cerebal palsy ... so that would be the most serious, but certainly not the most common reason.

When my husband and I first got married we wanted 5 to 7 kids. We had our first child and then we thought we could have 10. Of course we worried about financial matters, but did have our second child within 2 years. Our second child (middle of 3) is seriously autistic. He just turned 14 and isn't bowel trained, can't read, can say things but cannot communicate effectively in any manner verbal or nonverbal, he is aggressive (has punched and kicked out windows, holes in wall, attacks by scratching, biting, hitting, hair pulling). He was tough from the start, thought initially he was colicky, but the screaming fits never ended ... have not ended. We gave serious consideration to calling it quits at 2 kids. But we were blessed with another boy, who is also autistic (he isn't as bad off as Matt, but he will also require a lifetime of care). Then we said we had to be serious - a realization probably something genetic was going on - and at that point got my husband had a vasectomy. Does that mean we really didn't want children at all ( part of me still wants more kids, we would have loved to have a girl), that we're selfish and only cared about owning things, that we'd abort a baby if the vasectomy failed, that we are anti-baby?

Yeah finances were a bit of a player, I never went to work after college (and 13 years later with a lot of putting them off for financial reason I STILL have student loan payments!) ... but really the major issue was Matt's problems. My husband with his health problems (heart attacks/quad bypass at 35 yrs old) can't take it here, so we don't live together. We're not divorced, don't plan to be. But now we're operating 2 households on one income (praise God a good income and we have all we need though in debt).

It takes a huge leap of faith and trust in God to accept God's ultimate plan for the marital act and quite frankily, most people are too selfish to do this. They want, want, want and the rest of this stuff doesn't outweigh that mindset. I am not saying there are not exceptions but I do not know many.

Fireman's Wife

I think the true huge leap of faith and trust in God's ultimate plan for the marital act would be no NFP ... to simply not worry about it at all. I feel the NFP users want to condemn ABC users for having similiar concerns of life that prompt NFP use. Most of humanity, for most of history, did not have this information available. God's use of the fertility cycle for most of history did not include charting mucus and temperature. Maybe NFP'ers are a bit more "open to life" if we judge that in total number of kids ... but they are not totally willing to put it all in the hands of God and probably fall behind those who use nothing in sheer numbers of kids. NFP users try to take control of their fertility. They seem to have enough reservations that they avoid conception for very similiar or same reasons as ABC'ers.

I just feel there is a lot of the kettle calling the pot black syndrome in these conversations.

Marcia

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Geocagun:

(and everybody)



I started a response to your last post to me, I really did. But then something funny happened: I heard my first Christmas carol of the year. (Bing Crosby’s “God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen” in fact). And that was the end. Sorry.



See, this is hard work for me. Research, drafting, editing. Precise language that ensures some bomb thrower isn’t going to hit you with something completely out of left field. Its time consuming.



Try to understand that to a small businessman like me this is the best time of year. This is the moment that you have an excuse to take some time and spend it with the people with whom you hassle, stiff arm, squeeze and beg favors all year long and let them know you how much you appreciate having them around.



I love this time of year and Der Bingle’s (that Crosby to anyone younger that about 40) crooning reminded me that I have cigarettes to smoke and lunches to buy. I have to commiserate and celebrate with people who’ve had a rough couple of years and express hope for the promises of the next couple. I’ve got bottles of booze for my business partners and the standard corporate trinkets for anybody who wants them.



It strikes me that God gave us the Sabbath because he knew that humans needed time away from work to refresh, recreate and reinvent themselves. We need time to work up some appreciation for what we have and what we have been given. If Sunday is the Sabbath of the week, then December is the Sabbath of the year. I’m sorry Geo-buddy, but I’ve just got better things to do with the next month.



If my personal messaging is any indication this a pretty popular subject and I am a pretty popular guy on it. I won’t blame anyone if they thought I was just in a corner and not man enough to admit it. If you want we can pick this up after the first of the year.

If you don’t, claim victory and leave the field, I won’t call you on it. In am suddenly in much too jolly a mood.



I’ve never started a thread here. What do you think about “Things I like about the Christmas season that have nothing to do with religion ?”



Just wondering



Cosmic Charlie

 

[BAChristian]

What do you think about “Things I like about the Christmas season that have nothing to do with religion ?”

You're the man CC...

 

[Benedicta00]

Marcia,

I think what you are having trouble with is the understanding the difference in having a valid reason to not have any more vrs the anti baby mentality. There are many who do not have autistic children and feel that they could not handle even three typical children and think your crazy to want to have that many. Those are the ones I often think would shrivel up and die if they lived one day in my house.

My own sister, when I was trying to explain to her what autism is (she seems to think autism is a matter of bad parenting), asked me rather rudely, why did I keep having children. I pointed out to her that she makes absolutely no sense since the autistic child is the fourth born, what did his autism have to do with me needing to stop having kids when he wasn’t even born yet? I do not know if she was insinuating that he didn’t need to be born or what, and he is high functioning, only mildly autistic and fully verbal.

I understand your reasons for not having more children, your not being selfish. It is hard work, and you must be there for you autistic child, it is not responsible to not plan for that, his care is for a lifetime, unlike typical children who will grow up and move on. We are referring to those who are not in your situation, we are referring to those who just think it is better to be comfortable and free then to share your life, it is not about the numbers, about how many you can and can not have, it is about being open to life. It sounds as if you are.

 

[Fireman's Wife]

[/font]Wow.

I'm sorry, but your reasoning is absurd. If you knew me, on a personal level, you wouldn't dare say these things. And I bet most of the people on this board, who know me, would agree that they can probably tell that I'm not some selfish, materialistic individual who wants to, how did you put it, "project" my "selfishness" on to the "treatment of the child"...

The problem here is that you shouldn't make those kinds of remarks because you blatantly generalize, and you don't know people on a personal level. Your remarks, IMO, are foolish.

Calm Down BAchristian,
Re-read my post. I specifically said I was talking about most ABC'ers I know. I never said I knew you and my comments were not even directed anywhere near you, although you did ask for replies a few pages back from people who could fit your criteria and still speak with confidence about NFP. (which I do meet your criteria BTW and I can speak with confidence and knowledge on NFP). I think it is also clear to anyone reading this that I am giving opinion (to which we are all intitled...you gave yours BTW) and certainly not trying to reason. If you want to judge my reasoning skills go to my profile and find my other post on this subject. However, I find your comments to me a little reactionary and emotional. Obviously I have offended you though I cannot see how, since I was giving a personal opinion about my personal experiences with people who I come in direct, extended personal contact with, you of course are not one of these people. So, give me a break, I am really not so bad once you get to know me.
Fireman's Wife

 

[Fireman's Wife]

[/font]

Hello Fireman's Wife ,

First I find some of the NFP proponents rhetoric to be extreme. Totally closed to life? Now if someone has no children, never plans to have any children, would absolutely have an abortion if they were pregnant ... now THAT is totally closed to life. The vast majority of married Christian ABC'ers do not fit that definition of being totally closed to life. I don't think people who are not married or not Christian can be directly compared because then there are factors beyond ABC involved. Most are not even almost completely closed to life. They might have a mindset to stop at a particular number, but most would gladly have another child if that is what God gave them.



The reasons I hear for NFP use nearly always deal with not being able to afford another child at the time (which is often a concern of ABC'ers as well) putting off a first child so that they can finish college, get to know each other first, graduate school or to pay off bills - and even the fears that they have to plan around NFP to really enjoy their honeymoon. If the wife is in graduate school and no kids yet I'd guess there is going to be the next excuse of that she needs to start her career. I think Michelle and other women who have concerns due to multiple c-sections is the most serious reason I've heard for NFP use. No, I know of one case they have a child with cerebal palsy ... so that would be the most serious, but certainly not the most common reason.

When my husband and I first got married we wanted 5 to 7 kids. We had our first child and then we thought we could have 10. Of course we worried about financial matters, but did have our second child within 2 years. Our second child (middle of 3) is seriously autistic. He just turned 14 and isn't bowel trained, can't read, can say things but cannot communicate effectively in any manner verbal or nonverbal, he is aggressive (has punched and kicked out windows, holes in wall, attacks by scratching, biting, hitting, hair pulling). He was tough from the start, thought initially he was colicky, but the screaming fits never ended ... have not ended. We gave serious consideration to calling it quits at 2 kids. But we were blessed with another boy, who is also autistic (he isn't as bad off as Matt, but he will also require a lifetime of care). Then we said we had to be serious - a realization probably something genetic was going on - and at that point got my husband had a vasectomy. Does that mean we really didn't want children at all ( part of me still wants more kids, we would have loved to have a girl), that we're selfish and only cared about owning things, that we'd abort a baby if the vasectomy failed, that we are anti-baby?

Yeah finances were a bit of a player, I never went to work after college (and 13 years later with a lot of putting them off for financial reason I STILL have student loan payments!) ... but really the major issue was Matt's problems. My husband with his health problems (heart attacks/quad bypass at 35 yrs old) can't take it here, so we don't live together. We're not divorced, don't plan to be. But now we're operating 2 households on one income (praise God a good income and we have all we need though in debt).


I think the true huge leap of faith and trust in God's ultimate plan for the marital act would be no NFP ... to simply not worry about it at all. I feel the NFP users want to condemn ABC users for having similiar concerns of life that prompt NFP use. Most of humanity, for most of history, did not have this information available. God's use of the fertility cycle for most of history did not include charting mucus and temperature. Maybe NFP'ers are a bit more "open to life" if we judge that in total number of kids ... but they are not totally willing to put it all in the hands of God and probably fall behind those who use nothing in sheer numbers of kids. NFP users try to take control of their fertility. They seem to have enough reservations that they avoid conception for very similiar or same reasons as ABC'ers.

I just feel there is a lot of the kettle calling the pot black syndrome in these conversations.

Marcia

Marcia,

I appreciate your comments very much. I understand and can atleast empathize with all the "grave concerns" that people, in general, have when raising a family. My posting was just an opinion from my personal experience with many people who very much profess to be Christian but are very selfish when it comes to being open to life. IMO, you can even have children and be closed to life. I have met some people who I think actually had a child as a token and not with any intent of being open to life. I do not feel that my comments are extreme. I find this the reality so often with most of the people I know who use ABC. I think my opinion cut a few people, on this thread, a little too deep. This was not my intent, as I am just sharing my experience, as I see it, in my particular culture and circumstances. I am certainly not trying to "convict" anyone on this thread. I actually enjoyed the lively postings as I read through them last night and I truly was not aiming my comments at anyone on this thread. BTW, NFP can be used to concieve children as well as avoid pregnancy. I am "relaxed" with my use of NFP unless I have a grave reason to avoid children. (I do not like to chart but I do want an awareness of my fertility.) So really, there may be some "pot calling the kettle black" around here, (though I haven't seen any evidence of this as I read through the postings) but it's not coming from me.

 

[Fireman's Wife]

Marcia,

I think what you are having trouble with is the understanding the difference in having a valid reason to not have any more vrs the anti baby mentality. There are many who do not have autistic children and feel that they could not handle even three typical children and think your crazy to want to have that many. Those are the ones I often think would shrivel up and die if they lived one day in my house.

My own sister, when I was trying to explain to her what autism is (she seems to think autism is a matter of bad parenting), asked me rather rudely, why did I keep having children. I pointed out to her that she makes absolutely no sense since the autistic child is the fourth born, what did his autism have to do with me needing to stop having kids when he wasn’t even born yet? I do not know if she was insinuating that he didn’t need to be born or what, and he is high functioning, only mildly autistic and fully verbal.

I understand your reasons for not having more children, your not being selfish. It is hard work, and you must be there for you autistic child, it is not responsible to not plan for that, his care is for a lifetime, unlike typical children who will grow up and move on. We are referring to those who are not in your situation, we are referring to those who just think it is better to be comfortable and free then to share your life, it is not about the numbers, about how many you can and can not have, it is about being open to life. It sounds as if you are.

Shelb5, great post! I believe you know where I am coming from! Like Cosmic Charlie, I am not going to be able to keep up with this thread, until after the new year. So have a great Christmas in Vatican City! (I envy you.)
Same to everyone else, I will try to stop by after the new year. Have a very merry Christmas!

 

[Benedicta00]

Shelb5, great post! I believe you know where I am coming from! Like Cosmic Charlie, I am not going to be able to keep up with this thread, until after the new year. So have a great Christmas in Vatican City! (I envy you.)
Same to everyone else, I will try to stop by after the new year. Have a very merry Christmas!

I'm not in Vatican City, I just think the flag is cute.

 

[Fireman's Wife]

I'm not in Vatican City, I just think the flag is cute.

LOL!

Fireman's Wife

 

[geocajun]

If my personal messaging is any indication this a pretty popular subject and I am a pretty popular guy on it. I won’t blame anyone if they thought I was just in a corner and not man enough to admit it. If you want we can pick this up after the first of the year.

If you don’t, claim victory and leave the field, I won’t call you on it. In am suddenly in much too jolly a mood.

This isn't about winning or losing to me Charlie.
I think I understand that you learn through debate which is something I do a lot as well.
I am always around to discuss this or anything else you want to discuss so when your ready, I will be here to talk.