Contraception

[patricius79]

1. Please provide a quote from The Christian Church. So far, you've only quoted from one denomination - yours.

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well you can look up how all the Protestant denominations and the reformers testify to the gave immorality of contraception

as to your idea that the Catholic Church is a denomination, the Holy Spirit testifies that she is the historic Church founded by Jesus Christ, as the historical facts show

 

[sunlover1]

that's interesting because I think your position implies "the ends justify the means"

and your argument would only work if there were something intrinsically wrong with abstaining from sex (during the fertile period, for example)

the Christian Church's position on this, however, is simply true

I'll go with the Bible for the win.

Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." (1 Corinthians 7:1-5)

 

[patricius79]

I'll go with the Bible for the win.

Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." (1 Corinthians 7:1-5)

exactly. periodic abstinence.

in fact, NFP couples have considerably more sexual relations than contraceptive coupldes, as well as a vastly lower divorce and adultery rate

see e.g. the scientific survey done by Dr. Robert Lerner a statistician of good repute at the Univ. of Chicago

 

[sunlover1]

exactly. periodic abstinence.

And for fasting and prayer ONLY, puleeze.

Why not call a spade a spade?
RCC's are just as human as the rest of us mere mortals.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

But MY issue has not gotten into that rather obvious moral problem and contradiction. I'm just confused by why doing sex contraceptively is not contraceptive sex? Why doing sex contraceptively is a PASSION of the RCC as the world's biggest promoter and teacher of how to do/practice that, but contraceptive sex is "evil?"







1. Please provide a quote from "The Christian Church." So far, you've only quoted from one denomination - yours.


2. I don't think you've been reading what I've posted. I never so much as even MENTIONED condoms or "selfish" anything. Do you have me confused with another poster (I can't image who)?


3. "'Abstaining from sex during the fertile period" is having sex contraceptively. It has one purpose: To not conceive (contraceptive), to control birth (Birth Control). I think your Catechism says that whatever is done "to render reproduction impossible" is "evil". Of course, this statement actually means "to reduce the changes of conception" which is what you said is moral and sound (it is IMPOSSIBLE to render reproduction impossible, obviously - this is all about reducing the chances).


What is, is....




You've REPEATEDLY stated (and quoted your denomination as saying) that contraceptive sex IS moral. In fact, you've specifically stated (more than once) that Catholic Family PLANNING and Birth CONTROL may be used contraceptively. I don't think your denomination taught this before the sexual revolution of the 1960s', but you've repeatedly confirmed it does now.


Please list at least 5 Protestant denominations ( of the 18,000 - 50,000 such denomination some Catholics claim exist) that officially stated that contreptive sex practices was "evil" or "bad" or "immoral" "some decades ago." I've asked this question many times of Catholics, none has been able to provide such. It's your turn since you just stated it as a matter of fact.



Yes, doing sex contraceptively is up. But then the largest religious organization in the world is passionately promoting it, holding classes in how to do it right there at the parish hall, at times even requiring couples to learn how to do it. That probably has had some impact on the increase of such practices, don't you think?


.

well you can look up how all the Protestant denominations testify to the gave immorality of contraception

YOU are the one stating, as fact, that all these Protestant denominations so declared that contraceptive sex is "immoral." YOU are the one that ergo must substantiate it. I'll wait (forever, I'm SURE)....

the Holy Spirit testifies that she is the historic Church founded by Jesus Christ

Yup. Of course, there's NOTHING to indicate that Father, Son or Holy Spirit founded the RCC. If you (or anyone) had ANYTHING - they would have presented by now, don't you think? (but that's another subject for another day and thread - not permitted here).

Now, how does any of that substantiate that contraceptive sex is okay but contraceptive sex is evil?









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[CaliforniaJosiah]

n fact, NFP couples have considerably more sexual relations than contraceptive coupldes

... thus, it has nothing to do with abstinence. It has to do with DOING sex contraceptively. PRACTICING, IMPLEMENTING, DOING sex so as to "render reproduction unlikely" as your Catechism puts it, and labels it "evil."





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[patricius79]

And for fasting and prayer ONLY, puleeze.

it doesn't say "only", and the Christian Church includes abstinence from sex as a kind of prayer and fasting if the intent is to glorify God and respect one's spouse

also: did you read:

in fact, NFP couples have considerably more sexual relations than contraceptive coupldes, as well as a vastly lower divorce and adultery rate

see e.g. the scientific survey done by Dr. Robert Lerner a statistician of good repute at the Univ. of Chicago

 

[patricius79]

YOU are the one stating, as fact, that all these Protestant denominations so declared that contraceptive sex is "immoral." .

right it is historic fact just like the very strong statements of Calvin Luther and Wesley and other Protestant leaders against contraception.

then beginning in 1930 with the Anglicans the Protestant groups took the secularist position rather than the early Church's position

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

But MY issue has not gotten into that rather obvious moral problem and contradiction. I'm just confused by why doing sex contraceptively is not contraceptive sex? Why doing sex contraceptively is a PASSION of the RCC as the world's biggest promoter and teacher of how to do/practice that, but contraceptive sex is "evil?"

1. Please provide a quote from "The Christian Church." So far, you've only quoted from one denomination - yours.


2. I don't think you've been reading what I've posted. I never so much as even MENTIONED condoms or "selfish" anything. Do you have me confused with another poster (I can't image who)?


3. "'Abstaining from sex during the fertile period" is having sex contraceptively. It has one purpose: To not conceive (contraceptive), to control birth (Birth Control). I think your Catechism says that whatever is done "to render reproduction impossible" is "evil". Of course, this statement actually means "to reduce the changes of conception" which is what you said is moral and sound (it is IMPOSSIBLE to render reproduction impossible, obviously - this is all about reducing the chances).


What is, is....




You've REPEATEDLY stated (and quoted your denomination as saying) that contraceptive sex IS moral. In fact, you've specifically stated (more than once) that Catholic Family PLANNING and Birth CONTROL may be used contraceptively. I don't think your denomination taught this before the sexual revolution of the 1960s', but you've repeatedly confirmed it does now.


Please list at least 5 Protestant denominations ( of the 18,000 - 50,000 such denomination some Catholics claim exist) that officially stated that contreptive sex practices was "evil" or "bad" or "immoral" "some decades ago." I've asked this question many times of Catholics, none has been able to provide such. It's your turn since you just stated it as a matter of fact.



Yes, doing sex contraceptively is up. But then the largest religious organization in the world is passionately promoting it, holding classes in how to do it right there at the parish hall, at times even requiring couples to learn how to do it. That probably has had some impact on the increase of such practices, don't you think?




YOU are the one stating, as fact, that all these Protestant denominations so declared that contraceptive sex is "immoral." It's YOUR statement of fact, the "burden of proof" is exclusively yours.



.

right it is historic fact

Then it's easy for you....

Do as I requested: Please list at least 5 Protestant denominations (of the 18,000 - 50,000 such denomination some Catholics claim exist) that officially stated that contreptive sex practices was "evil" or "bad" or "immoral" "some decades ago."I'm not asking for official statements from ALL Protestant denominations (as your statement would mandate), just 0.01% of them. Since it's a "fact", it's profoundly easy for you to produce such (You'd be the first ever by my experience- and I've been asking for this since I was maybe 15 years old).

While you're at it, supply those numerous quotes I've requested from The Christian Church (all you've given is a couple of snippets from your denomination).







.

 

[patricius79]

1. Please provide a quote from The Christian Church. So far, you've only quoted from one denomination - yours.

.

which is the historic Trinitarian Church

Contraception and Sterilization

 

[patricius79]

Then it's easy for you....

Do as I requested: Please list at least 5 Protestant denominations (of the 18,000 - 50,000 such denomination some Catholics claim exist) that officially stated that contreptive sex practices was "evil" or "bad" or "immoral" "some decades ago
.

all of them did before 1930. e.g. the Anglicans and Presbyterians and Methodists. you can try to find a counter-example if you like, but it will be a group nobody has every heard of probably

btw, I asked you a question on the previous page--actually the second to last page-- about doctoring a quotation. what is the answer?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

But MY issue has not gotten into that rather obvious moral problem and contradiction. I'm just confused by why doing sex contraceptively is not contraceptive sex? Why doing sex contraceptively is a PASSION of the RCC as the world's biggest promoter and teacher of how to do/practice that, but contraceptive sex is "evil?"

1. Please provide a quote from "The Christian Church." So far, you've only quoted from one denomination - yours.


2. I don't think you've been reading what I've posted. I never so much as even MENTIONED condoms or "selfish" anything. Do you have me confused with another poster (I can't image who)?


3. "'Abstaining from sex during the fertile period" is having sex contraceptively. It has one purpose: To not conceive (contraceptive), to control birth (Birth Control). I think your Catechism says that whatever is done "to render reproduction impossible" is "evil". Of course, this statement actually means "to reduce the changes of conception" which is what you said is moral and sound (it is IMPOSSIBLE to render reproduction impossible, obviously - this is all about reducing the chances).


What is, is....




You've REPEATEDLY stated (and quoted your denomination as saying) that contraceptive sex IS moral. In fact, you've specifically stated (more than once) that Catholic Family PLANNING and Birth CONTROL may be used contraceptively. I don't think your denomination taught this before the sexual revolution of the 1960s', but you've repeatedly confirmed it does now.


Please list at least 5 Protestant denominations ( of the 18,000 - 50,000 such denomination some Catholics claim exist) that officially stated that contreptive sex practices was "evil" or "bad" or "immoral" "some decades ago." I've asked this question many times of Catholics, none has been able to provide such. It's your turn since you just stated it as a matter of fact.



Yes, doing sex contraceptively is up. But then the largest religious organization in the world is passionately promoting it, holding classes in how to do it right there at the parish hall, at times even requiring couples to learn how to do it. That probably has had some impact on the increase of such practices, don't you think?




YOU are the one stating, as fact, that all these Protestant denominations so declared that contraceptive sex is "immoral." It's YOUR statement of fact, the "burden of proof" is exclusively yours.



Then it's easy for you....

Do as I requested: Please list at least 5 Protestant denominations (of the 18,000 - 50,000 such denomination some Catholics claim exist) that officially stated that contreptive sex practices was "evil" or "bad" or "immoral" "some decades ago."I'm not asking for official statements from ALL Protestant denominations (as your statement would mandate), just 0.01% of them. Since it's a "fact", it's profoundly easy for you to produce such (You'd be the first ever by my experience- and I've been asking for this since I was maybe 15 years old).

While you're at it, supply those numerous quotes I've requested from The Christian Church (all you've given is a couple of snippets from your denomination).

Contraception and Sterilization

Your link is entirely irrelvant to anything I posted or you said.

It is not from The Christian Church, it's an unofficial website of your denomination.

It is not from ANY Protestant denomination (much less 5 of them). It is not from "some decades ago," is not an official denominational statement of ANY Protestant denomination.


READ what I posted.





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[patricius79]

Your link is entirely irrelvant to anything I posted or you said.

It is not from The Christian Church, it's an unofficial website of your denomination.

.

you keep making the claim that the Catholic Church is a denomination as if there was another historic, orthdox Trinitarian belief system in the first millenium

would you please name one person in the first millenium that represents the non-Catholic, orthodox interpretation of Scripture ?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

But MY issue has not gotten into that rather obvious moral problem and contradiction. I'm just confused by why doing sex contraceptively is not contraceptive sex? Why doing sex contraceptively is a PASSION of the RCC as the world's biggest promoter and teacher of how to do/practice that, but contraceptive sex is "evil?"

1. Please provide a quote from "The Christian Church." So far, you've only quoted from one denomination - yours.


2. I don't think you've been reading what I've posted. I never so much as even MENTIONED condoms or "selfish" anything. Do you have me confused with another poster (I can't image who)?


3. "'Abstaining from sex during the fertile period" is having sex contraceptively. It has one purpose: To not conceive (contraceptive), to control birth (Birth Control). I think your Catechism says that whatever is done "to render reproduction impossible" is "evil". Of course, this statement actually means "to reduce the changes of conception" which is what you said is moral and sound (it is IMPOSSIBLE to render reproduction impossible, obviously - this is all about reducing the chances).


What is, is....







You've REPEATEDLY stated (and quoted your denomination as saying) that contraceptive sex IS moral. In fact, you've specifically stated (more than once) that Catholic Family PLANNING and Birth CONTROL may be used contraceptively. I don't think your denomination taught this before the sexual revolution of the 1960s', but you've repeatedly confirmed it does now.


Please list at least 5 Protestant denominations ( of the 18,000 - 50,000 such denomination some Catholics claim exist) that officially stated that contreptive sex practices was "evil" or "bad" or "immoral" "some decades ago." I've asked this question many times of Catholics, none has been able to provide such. It's your turn since you just stated it as a matter of fact.



Yes, doing sex contraceptively is up. But then the largest religious organization in the world is passionately promoting it, holding classes in how to do it right there at the parish hall, at times even requiring couples to learn how to do it. That probably has had some impact on the increase of such practices, don't you think?




YOU are the one stating, as fact, that all these Protestant denominations so declared that contraceptive sex is "immoral." It's YOUR statement of fact, the "burden of proof" is exclusively yours.





Then it's easy for you....

Do as I requested (I haven't a CLUE what it has to do with ANYTHING but....): Please list at least 5 Protestant denominations (of the 18,000 - 50,000 such denomination some Catholics claim exist) that officially stated that contreptive sex practices was "evil" or "bad" or "immoral" "some decades ago."I'm not asking for official statements from ALL Protestant denominations (as your statement would mandate), just 0.01% of them. Since it's a "fact", it's profoundly easy for you to produce such (You'd be the first ever by my experience- and I've been asking for this since I was maybe 15 years old).

While you're at it, supply those numerous quotes I've requested from The Christian Church (all you've given is a couple of snippets from your denomination).






Your link is entirely irrelvant to anything I posted or you said.

It is not from The Christian Church, it's an unofficial website of your denomination.

It is not from ANY Protestant denomination (much less 5 of them). It is not from "some decades ago," is not an official denominational statement of ANY Protestant denomination.


READ what I posted.




.

would you please name one person in the first millenium that represents the non-Catholic, orthodox interpretation of Scripture ?

1. I'm NOT going to go off topic, violate rules - and have you report me. It's not going to work. Remember that. Always.


2. READ what I posted. It's here for you. READ it. TRY to have a discussion.






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[patricius79]

1. I'm NOT going to go off topic, violate rules - and have you report me. It's not going to work. Remember that. Always.


2. READ what I posted. It's here for you. READ it. TRY to have a discussion.

.

I've been trying to understand your posts.

please stop quoting yourself at such length. one thing at a time: okay?

But MY issue has not gotten into that rather obvious moral problem and contradiction. I'm just confused by why doing sex contraceptively is not contraceptive sex

Dick and Jake both wish to avoid pregnancy.

Dick wishes to do so temporarily until his wife's serious health problem is resolved. he abstains from sex during the fertile period.

Jake wishes to do so because he is selfish and doesn't want to take care of a child, even though he thinks God wants him to have a child. he uses a condom whenever he has sex with his wife


notice how the intention is different, and the means used, although both wish to avoid pregnancy

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Dick and Jake both wish to avoid pregnancy.

.... their goal, intent, end, purpose is contraception. It is to "render conception unlikely" - exactly what the RCC calls "evil" (but then teaches people how to do).

Dick wishes to do so temporarily until his wife's serious health problem is resolved. he abstains from sex during the fertile period.

So, he "has sex MORE often than otherwise" as you stress he could. This has NOTHING to do with abstinence but rather with having all that sex contraceptively - directing it all to infertile times and away from fertile times - perhaps DOING, PRACTICING, IMPLEMENTING the birth control methods, the family planning techniques taught to them by the only denomination that teaches contraception: the RCC.


DOING, practicing, implementing the lessons, doing all this - has ONE end, objective, design, purpose: to render conception unlikely. Your denomination says that doing things to render conception unlikely is "evil."

Jake wishes to do so because he is selfish and doesn't want to take care of a child, even though he thinks God wants him to have a child. he uses a condom whenever he has sex with his wife

So, Jake does what you say he can: have lotsa sex - more than any good Mormon mom, more than any Italian momma. AND he does so for ONE reason: to not conceive.

Your denomination says that doing things to render conception unlikely is evil. This is EXACTLY what Jake did and EXACTLY what Dick did.

notice how the intention is different, and the means used, although both wish to avoid pregnancy

The intent and goal was IDENTICAL.
Both had sex CONTACEPTIVELY.
Both practice contraceptive sex.

Yeah, one practices, implements the TECHNIQUE taught by the RCC, the other uses a more effective means - but the purpose, end, design, goal, an result is IDENTICAL. Conception is circumvented - on purpose. This your denomination says is "evil." But it teaches people how to do it - the only denomination on the planet that does.



Your "apologetic" is like the abortionist saying, "but the INTENTION was good." Dead baby nonetheless....
And in your case, the INTENTION was actually identical!

Now, maybe you'd say, "But if the abortionist cuts the baby up with a knift - that's okay! But if he burns her to death with a saline solution, that's bad!" Well, there's a dead baby either way; the means does not justify the ends.





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[patricius79]

Dick's intention was to abstain during fertile periods to avoid pregnancy in order to protect his wife's health for God's sake.

Jake's intention was to have sex using a condom to avoid pregnancy for selfish reasons (e.g. wanting to play excessive amount of golf)

the Christian Church judges that these intentions and actions are morally different

 

[sunlover1]

it doesn't say "only",

It says not to defraud EXCEPT for prayer and fasting:

KJV with Strong's
Defraud ye not one the other except __ it be with consent for a time that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer
and come together __ again that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency

​

What's kind of silly is that you're saying that you DO defraud each
other during fertile days (which Scripture forbids) and then you
say condoms are evil (Which Scripture is totally silent about)

Leaves me scratching my head ...

 

[bbbbbbb]

e.g. if one's spouse has serious psychological problems and already has great difficulty taking care of her/his children.

So economic difficulties do not constitute "serious problems"? Economic stress frequently overflows into psychological problems. I have observed too many large Catholic families which were quite dysfunctional because the father could not provide an adequate income to provide the bare necessities for his family, much less afford the cost of a parochial education. To ease the stress, relief was found all too easily in the bottle.

why do you think that?

Because the average size of the Catholic family is much closer to the average size of the American family than it has been in any time prior to fifty years ago.

if your point is that most "Catholics" are not living this teaching, then you are quite right.

Is this because this teaching is limited within the Catholic Church and is not widely disseminated or because it is widely preached but ignored?

 

[sunlover1]

So economic difficulties do not constitute "serious problems"? Economic stress frequently overflows into psychological problems. I have observed too many large Catholic families which were quite dysfunctional because the father could not provide an adequate income to provide the bare necessities for his family, much less afford the cost of a parochial education. To ease the stress, relief was found all too easily in the bottle.



Because the average size of the Catholic family is much closer to the average size of the American family than it has been in any time prior to fifty years ago.

I wonder if 'some' of that though, was due to plain old lack of sex ed.
My mom came from a (practicing) RCC family of 7 children
and my dad came from a (non practicing) baptist fam of 7 children as well.

Just a thought.