Contraception

[Frankie]

Do Baptists have any set belief on artificial contraception?

My opinion is that God gave us a brain and we should use it. If we have health problems and should not have childen, then we should use contraception to prevent that and if we don't want children, we should not have them. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with using contraception. There are far to many delinquent fathers out there and far to many bad mothers who should not have had children in the first place. I say, if someone is not prepared to be a good parent and bring children into a home that is loving and can provide for their emotional and material needs..... they should use contraception.

Frankie (who is very set on this issue)

 

[kayanne]

Let me try to clarify this a bit. NFP doesn't remove the procreative aspect from sex. Any time two people have sexual intercourse, there is the possibility for conception. A couple may try to prevent conception by determining a woman's fertile time and abstaining during that time. But because they are not having sex, they are not removing that aspect. Procreation is inherent to the sexual activity itself. So you can't take away an aspect from an activity that you're not participating in. Every time they do have sex, they are open to conception.

Condoms do remove the procreative aspect. Because the sexual act is made up of both the unitive and the procreative aspect, when a condom is used, the procreative aspect is removed. Every time this couple has sex, they are not open to conception.

Do you see the difference?

Nope, sorry, still don't see it.
You said "condoms do remove the procreative aspect," but as I said earlier, they don't remove it statistically as well as NFP does. And it sure does seem to me that if a couple is following a calendar, thermometer readings, or whatever else is involved with NFP, they are pretty clearly trying to remove the procreative aspect of their sex life. Sure, there's no physical barrier (ie condom) on those occassions when they do have sex, but a situation of "Oh, honey, we can't tonight.....we need to wait about 4 more days." You said
"A couple may try to prevent conception by determining a woman's fertile time and abstaining during that time. But because they are not having sex, they are not removing that aspect." To me, avoiding sex during the fertile time is every bit as much attempting to remove the procreative aspect (or more) than using a condom is.
Thanks for attempting to clarify, but I think I'm gonna be pretty stubborn on this one.

So let's move on to another question. What if a woman who either a) became catholic after getting married, or b) was already catholic but she and her husband now disagree on the issue of bc.
What is she to do if her husband wishes/insists that they use some form of bc? As a catholic, is she more obligated to submit to her husband on this issue, or refuse her husband in order to do what the cath church tells her to do?
I'm just curious, because even though I'm not cath, my husband absolutely insists on bc (due to his serious health problems, and he doesn't want to leave me widowed with any more children than we already have---although we always wanted a large family before his health problems). Anyway, since I believe a wife is to be submissive to her husband in all things (a clear Biblical command) that absolutely settles the bc issue for me. Not that I believe it's wrong anyway, as you know; I'm just saying that the command to submit to my husband is a lot more clearcut to me than any supposed Biblical opposition to bc.

 

[Carrye]

Thanks for attempting to clarify, but I think I'm gonna be pretty stubborn on this one.

You have met your stubborn match, Kayanne.

Nope, sorry, still don't see it.
You said "condoms do remove the procreative aspect," but as I said earlier, they don't remove it statistically as well as NFP does. And it sure does seem to me that if a couple is following a calendar, thermometer readings, or whatever else is involved with NFP, they are pretty clearly trying to remove the procreative aspect of their sex life. Sure, there's no physical barrier (ie condom) on those occassions when they do have sex, but a situation of "Oh, honey, we can't tonight.....we need to wait about 4 more days." You said
"A couple may try to prevent conception by determining a woman's fertile time and abstaining during that time. But because they are not having sex, they are not removing that aspect." To me, avoiding sex during the fertile time is every bit as much attempting to remove the procreative aspect (or more) than using a condom is.

Ok, I'm still not explaining it clearly enough then, because this part isn't really even an argument about NFP itself.

I can tell that you understand the: unitive + procreative = entire sexual act, and yet it must not be completely, because that's where I see the gap.

The two aspects are parts of the sexual act. So if a person isn't engaging in this activity, neither aspect is involved. Does that make sense? So if a couple isn't engaging in sexual activity, they cannot be removing either aspect, because they are not participating in the activity at all. You can't remove anything from an activity you're not doing.

But if a couple engages in sexual activity with birth control (any form, though you used condoms specifically as your example), they are removing the procreative aspect. They are participating in the sexual act, and therefore one one the aspects can be removed. Is that making sense?

I'm not even trying to convince you about NFP right now, I'm just trying to get you to understand the distinction, because there really is a difference. And, as I said, I'm stubborn.

So let's move on to another question. What if a woman who either a) became catholic after getting married, or b) was already catholic but she and her husband now disagree on the issue of bc.
What is she to do if her husband wishes/insists that they use some form of bc? As a catholic, is she more obligated to submit to her husband on this issue, or refuse her husband in order to do what the cath church tells her to do?

I guess I don't know what the Church would teach on this. Contraception in any form is gravely sinful, according to Catholic belief, so the Church certainly wouldn't support that. If the husband forced it, he would be causing her to sin, while sinning himself. But this isn't really something I can speak of at length, because I'd only be speculating. This would definitely be something to ask in OBOB, because there are others who are more knowledgeable about this than I.