Contraception???

[Philothei]

Re: group vs individual judment



thank God Idid not read it this way....

 

[Philothei]

Originally Posted by ThePilgrim
Of course, while we can judge an action in general, we're all agreed that we shouldn't judge individuals, because we don't' know their hearts or their circumstances...

But for anyone out there that might be having trouble conceiving, let me just take a second to plug a wonderful option: Adopt!

There are hundreds of thousands of kids, millions even, who need homes. If anyone is reading this thread and has even the tiniest bit of room in their heart and in their home, please, please prayerfully consider adoption!!! It's more important than you know, and God will bless your life through the adoption more than you could understand right now.

:-D

In Christ,
John



I agree with you... only the cost of a adoption cannot be within the couple's financial means....
Or also if the couple has health issues then the possibility of adopting also puts them in a disadvantage...
Acutally that was the number one suggestion of the Fathers to infertile couples... and rightly so... I know also many priests(4 classmates) in the GOA who have adopted from the Monastery in Guatemala... as they could not concieve...
Philothei

 

[127.0.0.1]

IMO I see nothing wrong with non-abortifacient contraception. In fact, if you're poor than I'd see it as the responsible thing to do. Why would you want 10 kids if you & your spouse are on minimum wage? Come on, like a crack house, or section 8 housing is a great place to grow up. You know, not everyone is rich enough to send their kid(s) off to private school.

As for NFP, I don't know about you, but when I get married, I'm not going to have a laboratory in my bedroom just to see if my wife is likely to be in her fertile phase, chasing that estimated 98%-99% effectiveness rate. However, if you don't mind a surprise every now and then, then it should work out great for you. In short...I don't trust it.

As for those who just don't want kids. I'd say that that right there is a pretty good reason not to have any.

I learned all about having sex from tantric websites. I'd highly recommend tantric sexuality to anyone interested in achieving a better sex life. IMO it makes those abstinence/procreation only people look so naive.

 

[Lotar]

IMO I see nothing wrong with non-abortifacient contraception. In fact, if you're poor than I'd see it as the responsible thing to do. Why would you want 10 kids if you & your spouse are on minimum wage? Come on, like a crack house, or section 8 housing is a great place to grow up. You know, not everyone is rich enough to send their kid(s) off to private school.

Yes, because there is nothing worse than growing up poor. I sure wish that my parents never had me or my sisters; it would have been better to have never lived than to grown up wearing Walmart and hand-me-downs. Only rich people really deserve to reproduce anyways. I guess the eugenicists had it right all along.

As for NFP, I don't know about you, but when I get married, I'm not going to have a laboratory in my bedroom just to see if my wife is likely to be in her fertile phase, chasing that estimated 98%-99% effectiveness rate. However, if you don't mind a surprise every now and then, then it should work out great for you. In short...I don't trust it.

That is the first time I've ever heard of a thermometer referred to as a laboratory. If you are using it because you do not want kids, and not for a medical reason, then you shouldn't be using it anyways.

As for those who just don't want kids. I'd say that that right there is a pretty good reason not to have any.

Yes, because we all know that Orthodoxy is about living for yourself , your will and your passions.

I learned all about having sex from tantric websites. I'd highly recommend tantric sexuality to anyone interested in achieving a better sex life. IMO it makes those abstinence/procreation only people look so naive.

I learned all about having sex by having it with my wife. IMO it makes people who read about it on websites look so naive.

 

[zhilan]

Zilian,
My quotes had no intention other than showing that St. John Chrisostome says about the specific issue for more on Marriage there is a book out of St. Chrysostome ... I quoted it within context as I have read mumerous times the book and understand the spirit of what he was saying.. Now if anyone has a different approach to this peticular quote ( or if is is out of context) I would be more than interested to see the interpretation he/she gives....


Also per you comment about "lust" in marriage... I am quite confused.....The fact that marital union and marital bliss is also physical I do not see the connection...Maybe you wanted to say 'obsession" or "addiction" then that would make sense...and that is something to be dealed with the SF... Again marital relations are not void of physical love that is expressed in a very natural way and should not be interpret as lust... but in reality it is nothing but love expressed in a physical sense and absolutely a gift from God...Sexual relations are blessed when expressed in marriage nothing "sinful" about that, whether a couple has 1 or 10 children it has nothing to do with their sexual relation... rather the children are the gifts that God bestows to a couple, it would be obsurd to think of them as a product of lust.... sorry to disagree....


Philothei

My post was actually indented to be in agreement with you. My point was that it is both impossible and also wrong to make judgments about other people, and certainly wrong to do so on the basis of how many kids they have.

The Orthodox Church calls us to approach marriage and intimacy with dignity for the other and with love and respect for God and for one's spouse. Now whether someone has zero or 1 child or whether someone has 20 children tells us nothing about how they are living up to the standards of Orthodoxy. God knows the spirit in which we approach the gifts He has given us. Others most certainly do not and so I can see no reason that anyone should feel they have the right to draw conclusions based on assumptions.

My point about the lust was not to change subjects, but just to point out that having many children does not mean that one automatically has the right attitudes about sex. If someone was not using contraception (and so had many kids) but approached sex in a selfish way rather than as an expression of marital love, they would outwardly appear to be "holy" (as some here have suggested we could draw such conclusions), but that may not be the case. Basically, I'm just saying it's no one's business to be judging because we don't know someone else's heart.

 

[127.0.0.1]

I learned all about having sex by having it with my wife. IMO it makes people who read about it on websites look so naive.

lol, you got me!

 

[OnTheWay]

I suppose the fundamental question is what is a parent's responsibility? I believe it is greater than just being able to put together enough low quality food so that the kid doesn't die and a few hand me downs so that they aren't naked. There's a lot of talk about the passions here. A selfish deserve to continue having chidlren when you really can't provide for them is a passion just like any other.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Contraception is abortion? While theres no argument that certain methods are, barrier methods (ie. using a condom) are no closer to abortion than staying celibate is...

Contraception like the Pill is not a barrier method and is (or at least allof them have the possibility to be) abortive. You are correct, condoms do not do this.

The pill is not spoken against enough and gynecologist are VERY reticent to ever say the truth about what the pill does. They are very good at skirting around the real answer.

 

[Philothei]

Contraception like the Pill is not a barrier method and is (or at least allof them have the possibility to be) abortive. You are correct, condoms do not do this.

The pill is not spoken against enough and gynecologist are VERY reticent to ever say the truth about what the pill does. They are very good at skirting around the real answer.

My gynecogist made me sing up a paper that released her from all responsibility when I declined to take the pill after my C-section, as I was not allowed to get pregnant for a year after...My doctor told me very sternly that the condom was not a good method and could get pregnant ... I told her that I was willing to take that risk... There was no problem though...
I think they do get percentages or bonus or vacation packages by selling drugs that applies to all doctors... it is sad.

I am glad I have never taken any pill... who needs more medicine and messing up your hormones?? No thanks...

 

[127.0.0.1]

Hopefully if enough people stop taking the artificial hormones in the pill, it'll send a message to big biz that people want to go green, even with birth control. Hopefully if they start using bio-identical hormones in the pill, those nasty side effects will go away.

 

[Lotar]

Hopefully if enough people stop taking the artificial hormones in the pill, it'll send a message to big biz that people want to go green, even with birth control. Hopefully if they start using bio-identical hormones in the pill, those nasty side effects will go away.

Anything that makes a woman's body think she is at the early stages of pregnancy for months or years on end is going to have nasty side effects.

 

[Vasileios]

What does it mean "can't really provide for them?"

This whole approach of considering having children based on finance... Where is the trust in God in that? The elder Paisios would always say that people today (and he meant Orthodox) simply do not trust in God.

We say that we believe that God will not place on us a burden too big to carry, that we place our whole lives in Christ's hands and here on this thread we say that we do that unless it is about children.

Is it not God who gives the life and the soul of every single child conceived? Is it not His will? Does anyone think that God will not provide? That God will let your child that He gave you will die of hunger?

So your child will not have a playstation 3. Maybe not even its own room (I grew up in the same room with my other 2 brothers, we never thought about it), perhaps he won't have pocket money to go to the movies, perhaps you won't have a TV set. And so on, and so forth.

Why does any of this matter? Are we Orthodox? What is the important thing here? Does it cost to provide love? Does it cost to teach your child the fear of God and the love for Christ? Will Christ and our Panagia let our children be miserable? Will they not answer our prayers when we do the best we can?

I'm the first to admit I'm weak and probably after spending a few more months staying up while my son cries I'll be trying to find ways to avoid having a second one. However, and please do correct me if I am wrong, but are we supposed to find excuses for our weaknesses or ADMIT them and realize how far we are still from God?

If I am weak and try to run away from the cares of parenthood then so much the worse for me. It is my weakness and I need to work on it with the help of my Spiritual Father in the life of the Church. If the SF says use a condom, because you are still too weak to either abstain or care for a child, then I should do that but also be ashamed of myself.

What I mean is, this whole thread is just... we all know what the TRUTH is. We all do. We all know that perhaps we are all weak and soft and the spiritual father decided the best prescription for our condition. I just don't like that we make up excuses for our lack of courage or faith. If we lack strength and courage, we should at least be humble enough to admit it. If we make up excuses about it we proclaim a lack of faith.

Forgive me. I am a son of a family of 7 children. My mom had her first 5, year after year. We grew up in difficult conditions but I think we became better people for it. This matter affects me a bit, so please forgive my words if they are harsh.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Anything that makes a woman's body think she is at the early stages of pregnancy for months or years on end is going to have nasty side effects.

If the ingredients are all natural, then I can't imagine it being any worse than actually being pregnant. If that still messes a women up, then I guess that's just all the more reason to not to use the pill or have lots of pregnancies.

 

[zhilan]

My gynecogist made me sing up a paper that released her from all responsibility when I declined to take the pill after my C-section, as I was not allowed to get pregnant for a year after...My doctor told me very sternly that the condom was not a good method and could get pregnant ... I told her that I was willing to take that risk... There was no problem though...
I think they do get percentages or bonus or vacation packages by selling drugs that applies to all doctors... it is sad.

I am glad I have never taken any pill... who needs more medicine and messing up your hormones?? No thanks...

Seriously, I think they do get kickbacks. I've been put on the pill twice for non-birth control reasons. Even though I made it clear to the doctor that I was not sexually active, before I left she also brought me a perscription of the morning after pill becuase she "likes to give it to all her patients." I told her I didn't want it and found a new doctor, but they really push these things.

If the ingredients are all natural, then I can't imagine it being any worse than actually being pregnant. If that still messes a women up, then I guess that's just all the more reason to not to use the pill or have lots of pregnancies.

It's not just like pregnancy, it's unnatural. When I was put on it I got all sorts of horrible side effects, including heart palpitations and extreme nausia. It was really bad I will never let a doctor put me on that again.

 

[127.0.0.1]

What does it mean "can't really provide for them?"

This whole approach of considering having children based on finance... Where is the trust in God in that? The elder Paisios would always say that people today (and he meant Orthodox) simply do not trust in God.

We say that we believe that God will not place on us a burden too big to carry, that we place our whole lives in Christ's hands and here on this thread we say that we do that unless it is about children.

I trust God to provide for my 10 children, but I don't trust him to keep me safe when I travel, so I have car insurance.
I trust God to provide for my 10 children, but I don't trust him to keep me physically healthy, so I've health insurance.
I trust God to provide for my 10 children, but I do not trust him to keep me & my family safe at home, so I have homeowners insurance.
Do you see what I'm getting at here? We fail to trust God in so many ways all the time and since when did not wanting kids mean you didn't trust God would provide for them? If I had 20 kids (heaven forbid) perhaps God would provide for them by sending child-services to take most of them away, to families who would be more able to devote attention to them. It's not about trust, I just don't want kids.

Is it not God who gives the life and the soul of every single child conceived? Is it not His will? Does anyone think that God will not provide? That God will let your child that He gave you will die of hunger?

Actually, children do die of hunger. All the time in fact. Sudan, Dar-fur, probably most of Africa, not to mention many other 3rd world countries, or victims of circumstance.

So your child will not have a playstation 3. Maybe not even its own room (I grew up in the same room with my other 2 brothers, we never thought about it), perhaps he won't have pocket money to go to the movies, perhaps you won't have a TV set. And so on, and so forth.

Okay, so maybe no playstation3 and you're right, thats no big deal. But what about a family that can't provide adequate health-care for their child, so they depend on the state. If you know you can't afford to pay for diapers, food, health-care, entertainment (kids love toys) and what not, avoid them sounds more responsible to me. Sure some folk are better off to take care of kids than others, but if your working two minimum wage jobs from 8am to noon, then from 1pm to 7pm and you live in a motel, maybe you & your spouse should wait.

Why does any of this matter? Are we Orthodox? What is the important thing here? Does it cost to provide love? Does it cost to teach your child the fear of God and the love for Christ? Will Christ and our Panagia let our children be miserable? Will they not answer our prayers when we do the best we can?

Good points...I'm sure anything is possible if a person just prays hard enough and couples that with fasting. But therein lies the problem. I'm not convinced that people do pray. As a result, parents are abusive and kids are miserable.

I'm the first to admit I'm weak and probably after spending a few more months staying up while my son cries I'll be trying to find ways to avoid having a second one. However, and please do correct me if I am wrong, but are we supposed to find excuses for our weaknesses or ADMIT them and realize how far we are still from God?

I'm not hiding it. I don't want kids. Why? Because I don't. I'm not going to have kids just because I'm supposed to. That wouldn't be a good start. To bring a new life into this world, reluctantly and to see it as a chore, right from the start, I'm sure that'll rub off well.

Some people just don't want kids. Besides, children aren't a couples only means to salvation. As for saying that be abstaining from children they're being selfish, you could well say the same of a family of 8 who decides to use contraception to avoid having 9. In fact, who cares about the 9, why not put all your hopes & dreams on the 10th child! Love the kids you have, don't just keep have more, waiting for that perfect kid that just raises itself . Although, I have nothing against families that want 10 kids or even more.

PS
As an afterthought, if a couple is so selfish so as to avoid having children, that's probably a pretty good reason right there why they shouldn't have any. Instead of two adults and a toddler, it'd be three toddlers. The blind leading the blind.

 

[Nichole]

Our koumbarios use the NFP approach and guess what.................their 8th child is due week before Pascha this year! Only the husband works and they live very humbly. When we go to their house we are over come with humility. Being around this family is very humbleing. They are a very blessed family. God has given them wonderful children and provides for them. Only God knows what is best for our lives. Why do we as humans tend to ignore this and manipulate our outcomes?! We need to let go and let God!

 

[fuerein]

Seriously, I think they do get kickbacks. I've been put on the pill twice for non-birth control reasons. Even though I made it clear to the doctor that I was not sexually active, before I left she also brought me a perscription of the morning after pill becuase she "likes to give it to all her patients." I told her I didn't want it and found a new doctor, but they really push these things.



It's not just like pregnancy, it's unnatural. When I was put on it I got all sorts of horrible side effects, including heart palpitations and extreme nausia. It was really bad I will never let a doctor put me on that again.

Sounds like a girl I knew when I was in HS. Her doctor wanted her on the pill for medicinal reasons (she was having some health problems at the time that they thought the pill could help with somehow). As soon as she got on the pill she became short-tempered, depressed, had serious mood swings as well as some other major complications... Yeah her family wanted her off the pill rather quickly after that. Her brother, my best friend, his wife went on the pill a couple years later. She had a nearly identical reaction.

 

[Philothei]

Seriously, I think they do get kickbacks. I've been put on the pill twice for non-birth control reasons. Even though I made it clear to the doctor that I was not sexually active, before I left she also brought me a perscription of the morning after pill becuase she "likes to give it to all her patients." I told her I didn't want it and found a new doctor, but they really push these things.

lol.. the same thing happened to me when i went for my first ever visit to the gynecologist here in the states I was single.. and got so mad when she told me that I have to take them even if i do not use them... ever... she gave a pack... I was so upset at her... because she was so conducenting to me... like i was a little stupid girl...with no brains not knowing what i am doing. I threw them in her garbage can and stepped out of her office.... she even got more mad and she yeld at me... back then I should have taken her to court for insult....I was so mad....

Why don't they get it that some people have morals?

It is beyond me...

Philothei

 

[127.0.0.1]

It's not just like pregnancy, it's unnatural. When I was put on it I got all sorts of horrible side effects, including heart palpitations and extreme nausia. It was really bad I will never let a doctor put me on that again.

Current prescriptions contain synthetic hormones, hence many people (though not all it seems) have unpleasant side effects. I'm talking about replacing those fake synthetic hormones, with hormones that are bio-identical to the ones your body produces naturally. If those make you sick, then I'd imagine that'd be a pretty good indicator of how you'd handle a real pregnancy.

 

[Lotar]

Current prescriptions contain synthetic hormones, hence many people (though not all it seems) have unpleasant side effects. I'm talking about replacing those fake synthetic hormones, with hormones that are bio-identical to the ones your body produces naturally. If those make you sick, then I'd imagine that'd be a pretty good indicator of how you'd handle a real pregnancy.

LOL. Man, you really need to stop talking about things you have no experience with.