Continuist and cessationist hermenuetics?

GoldenKingGaze

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Our old continuist hermeneutics differ from cessationists' hinging around the words in 1 Corinthians 13 "the perfect thing to come." When we consider this is Jesus second coming our Bible interpretation is very different from those who are sure the word of God is perfect, and complete very literally. So, not a summary. Complete and fitting us for all of life and ministry. Thinking the Bible is the perfect thing, and that when looking into it one knows himself perfectly...

Romans 1-2 then is complete and final say on homosexuality, proving that all homosexuals, like the ancient pagan Romans, choose this path at some time. Although today many say, they were born this way. And some are fearful and suicidal. The answer from cessationists from their literal hermenuetics is that they ought revert to heterosexuality, which they say they can't remember ever being...

There are other examples, like that the world is 6000 years old, taking Genesis literally.

I think we need to choose between one or the other methods. I am sure continuism is correct. And having the Holy Spirit gifts and powers for truth in the word.

A mixture of continuism and cessationism needs to be corrected before a thesis or lecture or preaching can be academically correct.
 
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HTacianas

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Our old continuist hermeneutics differ from cessationists' hinging around the words in 1 Corinthians 13 "the perfect thing to come." When we consider this is Jesus second coming our Bible interpretation is very different from those who are sure the word of God is perfect, and complete very literally. So, not a summary. Complete and fitting us for all of life and ministry. Thinking the Bible is the perfect thing, and that when looking into it one knows himself perfectly...

Romans 1-2 then is complete and final say on homosexuality, proving that all homosexuals, like the ancient pagan Romans, choose this path at some time. Although today many say, they were born this way. And some are fearful and suicidal. The answer from cessationists from their literal hermenuetics is that they ought revert to heterosexuality, which they say they can't remember ever being...

There are other examples, like that the world is 6000 years old, taking Genesis literally.

I think we need to choose between one or the other methods. I am sure continuism is correct. And having the Holy Spirit gifts and powers for truth in the word.

A mixture of continuism and cessationism needs to be corrected before a thesis or lecture or preaching can be academically correct.

The continualism/cessationism debate cannot be solved with hermeneutics. It is solved by history. Look for spiritual gifts within the Church from its founding until now. There you will find the answer.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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The continualism/cessationism debate cannot be solved with hermeneutics. It is solved by history. Look for spiritual gifts within the Church from its founding until now. There you will find the answer.
Pneumatology history is very interesting. If anything, it is the continuation of the Bible.

But even not debating, I make the point that, we should not be inbetween, but one or the other. I look for pure continuism.
 
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HTacianas

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Pneumatology history is very interesting. If anything, it is the continuation of the Bible.

But even not debating, I make the point that, we should not be inbetween, but one or the other. I look for pure continuism.

To find pure continuism, pure continuism would have to exist throughout history. You may find examples of one thing or another here or there but what some describe as continuism -speaking in tongues, etc.- has only existed among some groups for around one hundred years.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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To find pure continuism, pure continuism would have to exist throughout history. You may find examples of one thing or another here or there but what some describe as continuism -speaking in tongues, etc.- has only existed among some groups for around one hundred years.
The Roman Catholics say they are the oldest continuists. They also teach tongues has always been right and continued down through the centuries. That the church became too political in the 8th and 9th centuries. St Francis had spiritual gifts. I think also St Anthony. There is mention of people resting in the Spirit around a holy relic grave.

Cessationists say that the lack of gifts generally in the old church is a sign or proof of a cessation. I do not think the catechism agrees.

The Pentecostal and Catholic Charis movement have revived the use of gifts.

Continuists of Catholic and Pentecostal persuasions have different use of scriptures each. I am eclectic, drawing on whatever I want.
 
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The Roman Catholics say they are the oldest continuists. They also teach tongues has always been right and continued down through the centuries. That the church became too political in the 8th and 9th centuries. St Francis had spiritual gifts. I think also St Anthony. There is mention of people resting in the Spirit around a holy relic grave.

Cessationists say that the lack of gifts generally in the old church is a sign or proof of a cessation. I do not think the catechism agrees.

The Pentecostal and Catholic Charis movement have revived the use of gifts.

Continuists of Catholic and Pentecostal persuasions have different use of scriptures each. I am eclectic, drawing on whatever I want.
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit." Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 2003
 
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Daniel Marsh

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The Church is a community of believers(body of Christ) via nature is the starting place.

Ephesians 4:1-13
Good News Translation
The Unity of the Body

4 I urge you, then—I who am a prisoner because I serve the Lord: live a life that measures up to the standard God set when he called you. 2 Be always humble, gentle, and patient. Show your love by being tolerant with one another. 3 Do your best to preserve the unity which the Spirit gives by means of the peace that binds you together. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as there is one hope to which God has called you. 5 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 there is one God and Father of all people, who is Lord of all, works through all, and is in all.

7 Each one of us has received a special gift in proportion to what Christ has given. 8 As the scripture says,

“When he went up to the very heights,
he took many captives with him;
he gave gifts to people.”

9 Now, what does “he went up” mean? It means that first he came down to the lowest depths of the earth.[a] 10 So the one who came down is the same one who went up, above and beyond the heavens, to fill the whole universe with his presence. 11 It was he who “gave gifts to people”; he appointed some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, others to be pastors and teachers. 12 He did this to prepare all God's people for the work of Christian service, in order to build up the body of Christ. 13 And so we shall all come together to that oneness in our faith and in our knowledge of the Son of God; we shall become mature people, reaching to the very height of Christ's full stature.

As the church we have not reached this goal yet.


Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


Romans 12:5
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Corinthians 12:12
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Ephesians 3:6
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

1 John 3
Good News Translation
Children of God

3 See how much the Father has loved us! His love is so great that we are called God's children—and so, in fact, we are. This is why the world does not know us: it has not known God. 2 My dear friends, we are now God's children, but it is not yet clear what we shall become. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he really is. 3 Everyone who has this hope in Christ keeps himself pure, just as Christ is pure.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Any readable text is generally read literally unless there are indications or markers (in the context) that it is a metaphor. You wouldn't fly in an aircraft if you knew that the designers constructed that plane on drawings and instruction manuals that were interpreted metaphorically. Then why would a person potentially do so with the Bible, which is far more important? God's Word is a book that deals with the well-being of our very souls.

The six-day creation is literal because that is how the text plainly reads, and there is no indication that it is a metaphor. Metaphors in the Bible many times also have a definable place indicating to you it is a metaphor. People who do not like a literal 6-day creation only interpret the text metaphorically because they simply do not like that idea of a literal 6-day creation, and they have become accustomed to worldly thinking that the Earth is billions of years old from secular atheistic Science.

Check out this thread here as one example of properly utilizing metaphors in the Bible:

As for Eclecticism:

If it is the same Eclecticism defined in this article, I do not see that as biblical or good.


Anyways, while I do lean towards Cessationism (See here), I also leave room for mystery in that God could be continuing the gifts more correctly in some other remote part of the planet that nobody knows about, or they may resurface again during the End Times. But I do not regard current churches that hold to Continuationism as biblical that I have seen so far. For example, I see Pentecostal churches as violating 1 Corinthians 14 in three places.

#1. Pentecostals believe in private prayer in gibberish speaking they don’t understand (instead of the early church being allowed to privately pray in a real foreign language that they would be able to speak and understand by the power of the Holy Spirit).​
#2. Pentecostals believe in speaking publicly in tongues without an interpreter.​
#3. Pentecostals allow for woman preachers which violates 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.​

In addressing private prayer in tongues done by Pentecostals:

Pentecostals will use 1 Corinthians 14:2 and 1 Corinthians 14:28 as proof of praying privately to the Lord in gibberish tongues they don‘t understand.

1 Corinthians 14:2

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God:"​
1 Corinthians 14:28

”But if there be no interpreter,​
let him keep silence in the church;​
and let him speak to himself, and to God.”​

In Acts 2: We see the definition of how tongues worked.

They spoke real foreign languages:

#1. ”And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,​
and began to speak with other tongues,​
as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:4).​
#2. “…Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” (Acts 2:7-11) (NKJV).​

They understood each other even though they spoke in these other real foreign earthly languages:

”Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together,​
and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. (Acts 2:6).​

So they spoke real foreign languages and they were able to understand those foreign languages, too. So Paul is not condoning gibberish tongues speaking they don’t understand because he says down in 1 Corinthians 14:15 that when he prayers with the spirit, he will do so with "the understanding" also. Tongues would always be real foreign languages they could speak and understand and not gibberish words that are repeated (Note: Written transcriptions of actual Modern day gibberish tongue speaking shows in many instances that they repeat a certain unknown word over and over again; However, Jesus condemned vain repetition in prayer in Matthew 6).

1 Corinthians 14:15

"What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also:"

Also, praying in tongues without an interpreter cannot be established by 1 Corinthians 14 because Paul's whole point in that chapter was to show how one should not speak tongues if they do not have an interpreter.

1 Corinthians 14:19

"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue."​

1 Corinthians 14:28

"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church;..."​

Granted, Pentecostals may bring up Pentecost in Acts 2 or the situation involving Cornelius, but these were unique one-time events with a specific purpose in church history. Pentecost was the church's birth (involving Jewish believers). Cornelius and his family were included in God's program as Gentile believers, showing the Jewish believers that God accepts the Gentiles. Plus, Paul's words were written after these events and set the instruction order involving tongues.

Some people believe they need something extra spiritual or a miracle-type experience to validate their faith. But that would kind of defeat the idea of faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

Remember, Thomas would not believe Jesus rose from the dead unless he had seen the nail prints in his hands and felt the wound in his side. Yet, Jesus said blessed are those who do not see and yet believe. I am not a miracle chaser. I am a Grace and Sanctification Chaser according to God's Word. My life is already busy enough in focusing on God's grace and Sanctification in striving to live a holy life. But some think that just because they have an experience of some kind of miracle, they are holy. This is a false line of thinking. Focusing on God's grace and loving God and others is the true path to living holy in Sanctification to God.
 
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An article from WayofLife:

“Early Pentecostal leaders understood that biblical tongues were real earthly languages. They even thought they would be able to go to foreign mission fields and witness through miraculous tongues without having to learn the languages. Those who attempted this, though, returned bitterly disappointed!​
“Alfred G. Garr and his wife went to the Far East with the conviction that they could preach the gospel in 'the Indian and Chinese languages.’ Lucy Farrow went to Africa and returned after seven months during which she was alleged to have preached to the natives in their own 'Kru language.’ The German pastor and analyst Oskar Pfister reported the case of a Pentecostal... ‘Simon,’ who had planned to go to China using tongues for preaching. Numerous other Pentecostal missionaries went abroad believing they had the miraculous ability to speak in the languages of those to whom they were sent. These Pentecostal claims were well known at the time. S.C. Todd of the Bible Missionary Society investigated eighteen Pentecostals who went to Japan, China, and India ‘expecting to preach to the natives in those countries in their own tongue,’ and found that by their own admission ‘in no single instance have [they] been able to do so.’ As these and other missionaries returned in disappointment and failure, Pentecostals were compelled to rethink their original view of speaking in tongues” (Robert Mapes Anderson, Vision of the Disinherited: The Making of American Pentecostalism).​
The conclusion was soon reached that their “tongues” were not earthly languages but a “heavenly” or special prayer language; and those are the terms we have heard frequently at large Charismatic conferences, such as those in New Orleans in 1987, Indianapolis in 1990, and St. Louis in 2000. The tongues that I heard in these conferences were not languages of any sort, but merely repetitious mumblings that anyone could imitate. Larry Lea supposedly spoke in tongues in Indianapolis in 1990, and this is a key example of what is being passed off for tongues in the Charismatic movement. It went something like this: “Bubblyida bubblyida hallelujah bubblyida hallabubbly shallabubblyida kolabubblyida glooooory hallelujah bubblyida.” I wrote that down as he was saying it and later checked it against the tape. Nancy Kellar, a Roman Catholic nun who was on the executive committee of the St. Louis meeting in 2000, spoke in “tongues” on Thursday evening of the conference. Her tongues went like this: “Shananaa leea, shananaa higha, shananaa nanaa, shananaa leea…” repeated over and over and over.​
If you think I’m making fun of these people, you are wrong. This is taken directly from the audiotapes of the messages.”​

Source:

In the article, did you notice the repeated words in the examples given by those who spoke in gibberish tongues?
I say this is a problem because Jesus condemned praying in van repetition.
One is praying vain words if they don’t know what they are praying and it is vain repetition if one repeats gibberish words that you don’t understand. Jesus said that these types will think they will be heard for their much speaking.

Side Note:

I do disagree with the author of the article on point, though. The author of the article does not appear to understand that the early church was allowed to pray privately to God according to 1 Corinthians 14. However, this was not gibberish modern day tongues speaking that people do not understand but it was the same real foreign languages they spoke and understood in Acts chapter 2. In Acts 2, they were not only able to speak another language but they were able to understand it, too. So for example: If you lived during the early church days, and God gave you the gift of tongues to speak in Greek, you could privately pray to God speaking Greek, and you would also be able to understand Greek (by the power and working of the Holy Spirit). Greek would not be your native tongue but you would be able to speak and understand it if God gifted you the gift of tongues in Greek. This is what Paul meant in verse 15 when he said he would pray (privately pray) with the understanding also. Paul was not talking about privately praying in some unknown gibberish that he did not understand. Clarity of understanding was Paul’s whole point in 1 Corinthians 14.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Any readable text is generally read literally unless there are indications or markers (in the context) that it is a metaphor. You wouldn't fly in an aircraft if you knew that the designers constructed that plane on drawings and instruction manuals that were interpreted metaphorically. Then why would a person potentially do so with the Bible, which is far more important? God's Word is a book that deals with the well-being of our very souls.

The six-day creation is literal because that is how the text plainly reads, and there is no indication that it is a metaphor. Metaphors in the Bible many times also have a definable place indicating to you it is a metaphor. People who do not like a literal 6-day creation only interpret the text metaphorically because they simply do not like that idea of a literal 6-day creation, and they have become accustomed to worldly thinking that the Earth is billions of years old from secular atheistic Science.

Check out this thread here as one example of properly utilizing metaphors in the Bible:

As for Eclecticism:

If it is the same Eclecticism defined in this article, I do not see that as biblical or good.


Anyways, while I do lean towards Cessationism (See here), I also leave room for mystery in that God could be continuing the gifts more correctly in some other remote part of the planet that nobody knows about, or they may resurface again during the End Times. But I do not regard current churches that hold to Continuationism as biblical that I have seen so far. For example, I see Pentecostal churches as violating 1 Corinthians 14 in three places.

#1. Pentecostals believe in private prayer in gibberish speaking they don’t understand (instead of the early church being allowed to privately pray in a real foreign language that they would be able to speak and understand by the power of the Holy Spirit).​
#2. Pentecostals believe in speaking publicly in tongues without an interpreter.​
#3. Pentecostals allow for woman preachers which violates 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.​

In addressing private prayer in tongues done by Pentecostals:

Pentecostals will use 1 Corinthians 14:2 and 1 Corinthians 14:28 as proof of praying privately to the Lord in gibberish tongues they don‘t understand.

1 Corinthians 14:2

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God:"​
1 Corinthians 14:28

”But if there be no interpreter,​
let him keep silence in the church;​
and let him speak to himself, and to God.”​

In Acts 2: We see the definition of how tongues worked.

They spoke real foreign languages:

#1. ”And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,​
and began to speak with other tongues,​
as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:4).​
#2. “…Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” (Acts 2:7-11) (NKJV).​

They understood each other even though they spoke in these other real foreign earthly languages:

”Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together,​
and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. (Acts 2:6).​

So they spoke real foreign languages and they were able to understand those foreign languages, too. So Paul is not condoning gibberish tongues speaking they don’t understand because he says down in 1 Corinthians 14:15 that when he prayers with the spirit, he will do so with "the understanding" also. Tongues would always be real foreign languages they could speak and understand and not gibberish words that are repeated (Note: Written transcriptions of actual Modern day gibberish tongue speaking shows in many instances that they repeat a certain unknown word over and over again; However, Jesus condemned vain repetition in prayer in Matthew 6).

1 Corinthians 14:15

"What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also:"

Also, praying in tongues without an interpreter cannot be established by 1 Corinthians 14 because Paul's whole point in that chapter was to show how one should not speak tongues if they do not have an interpreter.

1 Corinthians 14:19

"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue."​

1 Corinthians 14:28

"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church;..."​

Granted, Pentecostals may bring up Pentecost in Acts 2 or the situation involving Cornelius, but these were unique one-time events with a specific purpose in church history. Pentecost was the church's birth (involving Jewish believers). Cornelius and his family were included in God's program as Gentile believers, showing the Jewish believers that God accepts the Gentiles. Plus, Paul's words were written after these events and set the instruction order involving tongues.

Some people believe they need something extra spiritual or a miracle-type experience to validate their faith. But that would kind of defeat the idea of faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

Remember, Thomas would not believe Jesus rose from the dead unless he had seen the nail prints in his hands and felt the wound in his side. Yet, Jesus said blessed are those who do not see and yet believe. I am not a miracle chaser. I am a Grace and Sanctification Chaser according to God's Word. My life is already busy enough in focusing on God's grace and Sanctification in striving to live a holy life. But some think that just because they have an experience of some kind of miracle, they are holy. This is a false line of thinking. Focusing on God's grace and loving God and others is the true path to living holy in Sanctification to God.
My first thoughts are that what Paul wrote to the Corinthians was for their time and personalities, as he knew them personally and by letters. We are not the same, not projecting our voices over the crowd around us. So we know we can pray in unknown tongues at normal volume with everyone else, then together fall silent to hear a prophetic word, a word of knowledge or an interpretation, each taking turns not competing. And we follow Paul's teaching in principle not literally.

At home we may pray in tongues alone. Interpreting is less common than a gift of knowledge. It is for self justification.
 
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