Contemplative Prayer: discussion

[Ignatius the Hermit]

Test. Everything.

You see this is the huge benefit with Catholicism.. we have been given the official deposit of faith, the magisterium and we have theologians but then we have mystics.

It is up to the theologians to test the mystics against the official teaching.

This is why obedience is do important because we can get tempted to think all we need to do is listen to Jesus and not to the Church.

This is how good ppl get off track and wacky. The devil appears as an angel of light too, so the theologians aid us in testing what is authentically from God.

God is not gong to tell us something that is against the official teaching of the Church.

Now do you see why Pentecostals are so dangerous? they have no checks and balances. It just then and what ever God tells them.

Yes, I agree with you completely. It is very important to test everything, indeed, we are commanded to do that. God will not take offense at that.

If I recall my history well, I believe there have been a number of Catholic Mystical practices which were condemned. The one I'm most familiar with was known as Quietism, which initially was built on the same premise as contemplative prayer. Madame Guyon and Fr./Bp. Mloinos were practioners of this form of prayer. I believe it was condemned because those who practiced it were led to no longer practice the sacraments, esepecially the Eucharist. Now do you really think the Lord would tell us not to do that? Of course not, but the Quietists did and committed heresy.

 

[benedictaoo]

I agree...btw that's why I think that the charismatic movement really belongs in the Catholic church.

I'm not saying that all Protestants are deceived or anything though lol! There are both Protestants and Catholics who get it right, and both Protestants and Catholics who fall into deception....what I'm saying though is that the Catholic church offers a good way to discern what is from God. Along with the Bible of course.

I agree that we should test everything... I know I've been deceived a couple of times, but I kinda knew it right away when it happened.

It does belong to the Catholic Church.. everything does really. I was they who broke from her and what true thing they have is what of Catholicism they did not reject.

But the Pentecostals and any other denomination that is not under authority and obedience is severely in danger. It is purely through God's mercy they don't fall into real trouble.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Yes, I agree with you completely. It is very important to test everything, indeed, we are commanded to do that. God will not take offense at that.

If I recall my history well, I believe there have been a number of Catholic Mystical practices which were condemned. The one I'm most familiar with was known as Quietism, which initially was built on the same premise as contemplative prayer. Madame Guyon and Fr./Bp. Mloinos were practioners of this form of prayer. I believe it was condemned because those who practiced it were led to no longer practice the sacraments, esepecially the Eucharist. Now do you really think the Lord would tell us not to do that? Of course not, but the Quietists did and committed heresy.

that's scary

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I would say so Monica. Mystics have often tried to explain it as a comforting embrace, much like resting in the arms of your loved one. Words are not necessary, because words simply cannot describe the closeness one feels at those times. There are several allusions to this in passages of the bible.

However, for those who practice this kind of prayer, it is a more common practice. Mother Teresa described her missionaries of Charity as contemplatives in the world, finding that level of closeness in serving the poorest of the poor (and that's why I had exprerienced what had happened in my blog).

that's very interesting! thanks for sharing

 

[Ignatius the Hermit]

Test. Everything.

You see this is the huge benefit with Catholicism.. we have been given the official deposit of faith, the magisterium and we have theologians but then we have mystics.

It is up to the theologians to test the mystics against the official teaching.

This is why obedience is do important because we can get tempted to think all we need to do is listen to Jesus and not to the Church.

This is how good ppl get off track and wacky. The devil appears as an angel of light too, so the theologians aid us in testing what is authentically from God.

God is not gong to tell us something that is against the official teaching of the Church.

Now do you see why Pentecostals are so dangerous? they have no checks and balances. It just then and what ever God tells them.

I couldn't agree more. In fact we're commanded to test everything. I don't think our Lord would be upset by that fact.

If recall my history, there have been some practicing groups who have been condemned as heretics by the CHurch. The one I'm most familiar with are the Quiets who were led by Madame Guyon and Fr. (possibly Bishop) Molinos. They were practicing a form of contemplative prayer that eventually they felt led them to stop partaking of the Eucharist. Now you and I know the Lord would not command that, but they felt that He did. Their practice was condemned as heresy by the Church. Quakers also follow contemplative prayer, and while the conservative branch of it claims beleif in the Trinity, the liberal branch believes that the inner light is a spirit that is called by a multitude of names, one of which is Christ. So yes Monica, test everything, and cling to CHrist!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

btw, the more time I spend with God, the more I appreciate the Eucharist so I guess that's good!

also I think contemplative prayer + Adoration would be really awesome.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

btw...about quietism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quietism_%28Christian_philosophy%29

No wonder it was declared a heresy

 

[benedictaoo]

I couldn't agree more. In fact we're commanded to test everything. I don't think our Lord would be upset by that fact.

If recall my history, there have been some practicing groups who have been condemned as heretics by the CHurch. The one I'm most familiar with are the Quiets who were led by Madame Guyon and Fr. (possibly Bishop) Molinos. They were practicing a form of contemplative prayer that eventually they felt led them to stop partaking of the Eucharist. Now you and I know the Lord would not command that, but they felt that He did. Their practice was condemned as heresy by the Church. Quakers also follow contemplative prayer, and while the conservative branch of it claims beleif in the Trinity, the liberal branch believes that the inner light is a spirit that is called by a multitude of names, one of which is Christ. So yes Monica, test everything, and cling to CHrist!

Any prayer that tells you to leave the Church, sin, or stop going to the sacraments is NOT of God!

So where does that leave Prots?

In His mercy... He tells them what they can understand and are able to accept and with their aversion to the Church He is patient with them but He will lead them here but they must follow Him and sometimes there are interferences that can be impossible.

An anti Catholic environment or a bias they are convinced of, or a mind that has just been made up against His Church. God doesn't abandon them but they are only able to receive so much of His light.

 

[thereselittleflower]

We are all called to contemplative prayer - it is a level of prayer that one enters into in their growth in the spiritual life. It is given by God.

Then there is the contemplative life.

While we are all called to the level of contemplative prayer, we are not all called to the contemplative life.

There are Contemplatives and Actives, Mary's and Martha's.

They are paths to theosis.

If one wants to truly understsand contemplative prayer, it is not an easy question to answer.

I again refer them to Theresa of Avilla's Interior Castle- from the 4th mansion on.

Chapter I. Sweetness in Prayer.
Chapter II. Divine Consolations
Chapter III. Prayer of Quiet

The Fifth Mansions
Chapter I. Prayer of Union
Chapter II. Effects of Union
Chapter III. Cause of Union
Chapter IV. Spiritual Espousals
​

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/index.htm

As one can see, this progresses into the contemplative life.

While Actives do engage in contemplative prayer, they stop in this progression within the 4th mansion - St Teresa tells us this:

Although the soul may become absorbed again, yet, as I said, unless already feeble, the body suffers neither exhaustion nor pain. I advise any of you who experience the latter to tell the Prioress, and to divert your thoughts as much as possible from such matters. The Superior should prevent such a nun from spending more than a very few hours in prayer, and should make her eat and sleep well until her usual strength is restored, if she has lost it in this way. If the nun's constitution is so delicate that this does not suffice, let her believe me when I tell her that God only calls her to the active life. There must be such people in monasteries: employ her in the various offices and be careful that she is never left very long alone, otherwise she will entirely lose her health. This treatment will be a great mortification to her: our Lord tests her love for Him by the way in which she bears His absence. He may be pleased, after a time, to restore her strength; if not, she will make as much progress, and earn as great a reward by vocal prayer and obedience as she would have done by contemplation, and perhaps more.

http://glorifyhisname.com/sys-tmpl/ic9/
​

 

[benedictaoo]

btw...about quietism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quietism_%28Christian_philosophy%29

No wonder it was declared a heresy

There was some crazy priest encouraging the use of psychedelic drugs to help out prayer...

 

[benedictaoo]

btw, the more time I spend with God, the more I appreciate the Eucharist so I guess that's good!

also I think contemplative prayer + Adoration would be really awesome.

Yea, I know what you mean... lately I have been desiring confession as before I had anxiety over it.

 

[Ignatius the Hermit]

btw...about quietism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quietism_%28Christian_philosophy%29

No wonder it was declared a heresy

Yes, that's it! So you can see how on some levels it mirrors the contemplative prayer disciplines of St. Teresa and St. John, but seriously took a nose dive off the deep end! So what bene said is right, test everything and never compromise your faith.

Incidently, I just wanted you to know Monica that I've enjoyed this thread. If you recall the thred you posted a couple of weeks ago about taking a quiz to see which spiritual type you are, well I came up as a Mystic (those who prefer a more contemplative prayer life), and you came up a Lover (those who prefer a more lively worship style).

 

[Ignatius the Hermit]

There was some crazy priest encouraging the use of psychedelic drugs to help out prayer...

What?!? Did his Bishop do something about that?

 

[benedictaoo]

What?!? Did his Bishop do something about that?

I can't recall it too well... it was in the 80's and he was into New Age, but I would hope so.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Also, contemplative prayer seeks to pierce the Cloud of Unknowing that is betwixt God and thee . . . . . .

 

[MoNiCa4316]

There was some crazy priest encouraging the use of psychedelic drugs to help out prayer...

er...yea ..no thanks. lol.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Also, contemplative prayer seeks to pierce the Cloud of Unknowing that is betwixt God and thee . . . . . .

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Also, contemplative prayer seeks to pierce the Cloud of Unknowing that is betwixt God and thee . . . . . .

Do you mean that through contemplative prayer, we can know God through experience, not just intellectually?

Any prayer that tells you to leave the Church, sin, or stop going to the sacraments is NOT of God!

So where does that leave Prots?

In His mercy... He tells them what they can understand and are able to accept and with their aversion to the Church He is patient with them but He will lead them here but they must follow Him and sometimes there are interferences that can be impossible.

An anti Catholic environment or a bias they are convinced of, or a mind that has just been made up against His Church. God doesn't abandon them but they are only able to receive so much of His light.

This reminds me! One day I was reading St. Faustina's diary, and at one point I just started to praise God. I can't really remember what I was reading though. Well after a while I got into what I guess you'd call contemplative prayer. And at that moment, I felt very close to God, and at the same time completely sure of the Eucharist, and about the Catholic church. I just knew that God wants me there. Often when I doubt I remember that experience and feel better. It was very real! So yea definitely if prayer helps you towards the sacraments and the Eucharist and the Church, it's from God.

Yea, I know what you mean... lately I have been desiring confession as before I had anxiety over it.

me too!

I find that my experiences with this type of prayer change me...afterwards, I find it easier to overcome sin, and want to live for God more...and to love Him and other people. And even some of my theology has changed this way. (btw it's become more traditional and sacramental)

Yes, that's it! So you can see how on some levels it mirrors the contemplative prayer disciplines of St. Teresa and St. John, but seriously took a nose dive off the deep end! So what bene said is right, test everything and never compromise your faith.

Incidently, I just wanted yo to know Monica that I've enjoyed this thread. If you recall the thred you posted a couple of weeks ago about taking a quiz to see which spiritual type you are, well I came up as a Mystic (those who prefer a more contemplative prayer life), and you came up a Lover (those who prefer a more lively worship style).

I remember that! I'd say I'm also partly mystic as well. I like both approaches a lot

I can't recall it too well... it was in the 80's and he was into New Age, but I would hope so.

I almost went into new age stuff when I was younger

 

[MoNiCa4316]

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