Contemplating death...

AlexB23

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By elect, I wonder if he meant those who are saved.
Yeah, most likely. @Carl Emerson could have used more natural language, such as "those who are saved" instead of elect, especially given that the word "elect" now refers more to choosing a politician.

I am curious why Mr. Emerson did not find my post insightful. My post shows two sides of the coin, which are: How we should have no fear for dying as Christians, and how we should have a healthy fear of dying young, as our bodies are a temple and we must try to fulfill God's plan for us on Earth by helping others become in a relationship in Christ through our actions.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Yeah, most likely. @Carl Emerson could have used more natural language, such as "those who are saved" instead of elect, especially given that the word "elect" now refers more to choosing a politician.

I am curious why Mr. Emerson did not find my post insightful. My post shows two sides of the coin, which are: How we should have no fear for dying as Christians, and how we should have a healthy fear of dying young, as our bodies are a temple and we must try to fulfill God's plan for us on Earth by helping others become in a relationship in Christ through our actions.

Check out my testimony - my life was a shipwreck, some of my friends died, I was incarcerated and given ECT - I spoke from the experience of being saved from premature death and given a second chance. Not because I looked after myself, being on drugs I was a mess. Then a still small voice whispered "return to your Christian roots - so I took off up country to find Him again and He met me dramatically - proverbially picked me up gave me a shake and said "These are the rails stay on them and consume the bible" From there 7 years of rebuilding prayer and ministry. Sometimes what God does shakes our theology. Most of the Christians I knew gave up on me, but a few that didn't even know me, prayed.
Thanks for being curious - another chance to Give Him Glory and now you know why I used the word elect - how could I possibly attribute my return to myself ?????

 
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RileyG

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Check out my testimony - my life was a shipwreck, some of my friends died, I was incarcerated and given ECT - I spoke from the experience of being saved from premature death and given a second chance. Not because I looked after myself, being on drugs I was a mess. Then a still small voice whispered "return to your Christian roots - so I took off up country to find Him again and He met me dramatically - preverbally picked me up gave me a shake and said "These are the rails stay on them and consume the bible" From there 7 years of rebuilding prayer and ministry. Sometimes what God does shakes our theology. Most of the Christians I knew gave up on me, but a few that didn't even know me, prayed.
Thanks for being curious - another chance to Give Him Glory and now you know why I used the word elect - how could I possibly attribute my return to myself ?????
Glory to God! I’m so happy you are now alive and a faithful Christian! Our God is a loving God indeed.
 
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AlexB23

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Check out my testimony - my life was a shipwreck, some of my friends died, I was incarcerated and given ECT - I spoke from the experience of being saved from premature death and given a second chance. Not because I looked after myself, being on drugs I was a mess. Then a still small voice whispered "return to your Christian roots - so I took off up country to find Him again and He met me dramatically - preverbally picked me up gave me a shake and said "These are the rails stay on them and consume the bible" From there 7 years of rebuilding prayer and ministry. Sometimes what God does shakes our theology. Most of the Christians I knew gave up on me, but a few that didn't even know me, prayed.
Thanks for being curious - another chance to Give Him Glory and now you know why I used the word elect - how could I possibly attribute my return to myself ?????

The return of you to Christ is attributed to God helping you through this rough time in your life. Your life was really rough. Psalm 18:1-2 talks about this: "I love you, O Lord, my strength. The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold."
 
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Carl Emerson

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The return of you to Christ is attributed to God helping you through this rough time in your life. Your life was really rough. Psalm 18:1-2 talks about this: "I love you, O Lord, my strength. The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold."

I was far from having that kind of confession - my grandmother was the oldest Salvation Army member in New Zealand and died at 99 Her prayers were a major part of my return.
 
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AlexB23

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I was far from having that kind of confession - my grandmother was the oldest Salvation Army member in New Zealand and died at 99 Her prayers were a major part of my return.
Your grandmother was placed in this life, to help you return to Christ. Her 99 years on this Earth allowed her enough time to bring you back to God.
 
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eleos1954

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Hi Folks,

As we age we consider end of life matters more seriously.

Recently I have come to understand a foundational truth that helps to put death into perspective.

I have come to realise that when God created man He designed them to be fit for purpose - and that purpose was to be eternally in fellowship with Him in heaven.

We see a hint of this in Ecclesiastes "He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, without the possibility that mankind will find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end."

So all mankind has 'living in eternity' built in and this is the intended outcome.

However Satan fell before the temptation in the Garden and hated the eternal purpose and status given to mankind and so waged war against God's purpose.

So loss of conscious awareness will not cease at death for two reasons. First because it is inbuilt in man for consciousness to continue, second how can we have a crowd of witnesses that are all asleep.

So the fear of death is a lie which all unbelievers are under.

Death itself is just transition, not to be feared.

Sadly many believers struggle with this.

Maybe if helps to understand that we are designed for eternal survival.

However when our creative Father saw the fall would happen, implemented a plan for our rescue by sending Jesus to reverse the consequences of the fall for those who believe.

As to the issue of 'soul sleep' it is a non issue if we realise that eternity is independent of time as we know it, so the witnesses consciously watch from the eternal realm.

Back in chronology, all will be resurrected to judgement when our earthly body substance will be transfigured to our new eternal bodies.

We were told not to fear the one who wants to destroy our bodies, his power does not extend to destroying our souls.

So take heart - He always wanted a people in eternal fellowship with Him - believe and you will be there with Him in a flash.

You were designed for it.
The Bible teaches we are mortal .... mortal means subject to death. Man was created to have a eternal existence with God .... but that existence is totally reliant on God. God told Adam and Eve if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they would die. The Tree of Life was removed and eating from that tree is what provided eternal life.



Didn't say anything about a "spirit" or "soul" of some kind going anywhere.

We don't receive immortality in any fashion until the resurrection and that don't happen until Jesus returns ... not before.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - King James Version

The removal of mankinds' immortal state (because the tree of life was removed)


‘And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live for ever,”

A simple statement to be believed.
King James Bible
(God) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen

What is it that people don't understand about this? It is very clear.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Death is death .... no consciousness of any kind. Described as a sleep because all will be resurrected one day. We are not to be ignorant about it.

At the first resurrection God will give us new bodies and restore our conscience unto us ... and take us to heaven ... we will have human form and will once again eat from the tree of life in heaven.

There is nothing to fear about death because it is a dormant state for everyone.

Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
A living person (a soul).

Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul, and spirit in one indivisible whole.

Because God has the power to resurrect it makes both biblical and logical sense for death to be described as a dormant sleep.

Also eliminates the false teaching of a torturous eternal burning place for eternity. God is not a torturing monster, He is merciful ... even to the lost. Nobody is being tortured anywhere.

When one looks at scripture as a whole .... rather than cherry picking verses it is very clear ... hell is the grave and the grave is a dormant sleep until they are resurrected ... some to eternal life (1st resurrection) some not (2nd resurrection) eternal 2nd death.

Set preconceived beliefs aside and study it out with a non bias mind for yourself. I used to believe in the immortal "soul" and burning hell teachings ..... until .... I studied the whole of scripture for myself ... death being a dormant sleep is overwhelming and should not be ignored.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Your grandmother was placed in this life, to help you return to Christ. Her 99 years on this Earth allowed her enough time to bring you back to God.

Yes... she was about 90 when I returned.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The Bible teaches we are mortal .... mortal means subject to death. Man was created to have a eternal existence with God .... but that existence is totally reliant on God. God told Adam and Eve if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they would die. The Tree of Life was removed and eating from that tree is what provided eternal life.



Didn't say anything about a "spirit" or "soul" of some kind going anywhere.

We don't receive immortality in any fashion until the resurrection and that don't happen until Jesus returns ... not before.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - King James Version

The removal of mankinds' immortal state (because the tree of life was removed)


‘And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live for ever,”

A simple statement to be believed.
King James Bible
(God) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen

What is it that people don't understand about this? It is very clear.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Death is death .... no consciousness of any kind. Described as a sleep because all will be resurrected one day. We are not to be ignorant about it.

At the first resurrection God will give us new bodies and restore our conscience unto us ... and take us to heaven ... we will have human form and will once again eat from the tree of life in heaven.

There is nothing to fear about death because it is a dormant state for everyone.

Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
A living person (a soul).

Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul, and spirit in one indivisible whole.

Because God has the power to resurrect it makes both biblical and logical sense for death to be described as a dormant sleep.

Also eliminates the false teaching of a torturous eternal burning place for eternity. God is not a torturing monster, He is merciful ... even to the lost. Nobody is being tortured anywhere.

When one looks at scripture as a whole .... rather than cherry picking verses it is very clear ... hell is the grave and the grave is a dormant sleep until they are resurrected ... some to eternal life (1st resurrection) some not (2nd resurrection) eternal 2nd death.

Set preconceived beliefs aside and study it out with a non bias mind for yourself. I used to believe in the immortal "soul" and burning hell teachings ..... until .... I studied the whole of scripture for myself ... death being a dormant sleep is overwhelming and should not be ignored.

Are you suggesting we are not given Eternal Life in Jesus ???

(can you keep your responses concise please.)
 
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Carl Emerson

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Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul, and spirit in one indivisible whole.

Ecc 12:7 "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
 
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Bob Crowley

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Most of the Christians I knew gave up on me, but a few that didn't even know me, prayed.
Thanks for being curious - another chance to Give Him Glory and now you know why I used the word elect - how could I possibly attribute my return to myself ?????

This comment reminds me of a story my old Presbyterian pastor told me. I'm Catholic now but I learnt a lot from him.

Apparently there was a bloke who'd gone right off the deep end - alcohol and whatever else. His wife was Catholic and she didn't know what to do. She was at her wits end.

But somehow God got hold of him and he became a Christian. The trouble was that nobody thought he was serious. His sister did but she was the only one. Even the pastor was dubious at first. Yet he became very committed to his church (I think the pastor back then may have been Methodist as he became Presbyterian later).

Anyway the wife went to the Catholic Bishop or Archbishop to get his advice. The pastor said he found it very difficult to forgive the bishop or archbishop as he advised her "Well, now he's become a 'hot-prot' maybe you'd better get an annulment" and so she did.

Anyway the bloke was serious and stayed Christian. I suppose the bishop or archbishop has since answered to a higher court for that particular piece of advice, but it was a long time ago.

Like you though nobody bar a few thought he was serious, in his case just his sister.
 
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eleos1954

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Are you suggesting we are not given Eternal Life in Jesus ???

(can you keep your responses concise please.)
What I'm saying ... God originally created man to be immortal and that immortality was dependent on eating from the tree of life ... that tree was removed (immortality removed) from the Garden of Eden .... from Adam & Eve to the end of time our eternal life is still dependent on the tree of life (through Jesus).

Genesis 3

22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”

23Therefore the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24So He drove out the man and stationed cherubim on the east side of the Garden of Eden, along with a whirling sword of flame to guard the way to the tree of life (removal from the tree of eternal life).

The tree of life that provided immortality had to be removed after Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate from the tree of knowledge ... else
sin would have become a state of eternity (living in a constant state of sin)

Eternal life is solely dependent on Jesus (who is God) ... we won't see the actual reality of that until He returns.

Until then we have faith in the promises and we believe God will finish his work in us and we will have eternal life with Him some day.

Jesus (God) is the tree of life ... He alone determines (judgement) who will live in eternity and that becomes a reality when He returns ... until then we are mortal (subject to death)

Until then we trust in the promises God has made and that we will have eternal life (and we rest in those promises) ... but that happens when He returns ... not before.

To be immortal one must eat from the tree of life ... and someday once again that tree will be available to us. Until then we are subject to death (immortal)

Revelation 22:1-9
New American Standard Bible

The River and the Tree of Life

22 And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Those in Christ will receive immortality ... those not in Him will not .... and we are not privy to His judgements.
 
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Carl Emerson

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What I'm saying ... God originally created man to be immortal and that immortality was dependent on eating from the tree of life ... that tree was removed (immortality removed) from the Garden of Eden .... from Adam & Eve to the end of time our eternal life is still dependent on the tree of life (through Jesus).

Genesis 3

22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”

23Therefore the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24So He drove out the man and stationed cherubim on the east side of the Garden of Eden, along with a whirling sword of flame to guard the way to the tree of life (removal from the tree of eternal life).

The tree of life that provided immortality had to be removed after Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate from the tree of knowledge ... else
sin would have become a state of eternity (living in a constant state of sin)

Eternal life is solely dependent on Jesus (who is God) ... we won't see the actual reality of that until He returns.

Until then we have faith in the promises and we believe God will finish his work in us and we will have eternal life with Him some day.

Jesus (God) is the tree of life ... He alone determines (judgement) who will live in eternity and that becomes a reality when He returns ... until then we are mortal (subject to death)

Until then we trust in the promises God has made and that we will have eternal life (and we rest in those promises) ... but that happens when He returns ... not before.

To be immortal one must eat from the tree of life ... and someday once again that tree will be available to us. Until then we are subject to death (immortal)

Revelation 22:1-9

New American Standard Bible

The River and the Tree of Life

22 And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Those in Christ will receive immortality ... those not in Him will not .... and we are not privy to His judgements.

Interesting response thanks and I appreciate the time you have put into it.

I have some issues with your thesis mainly because the text plainly says eternal life was/is given to believers rather than something promised for a later time.

There are several scriptures that confirm this.

I also believe that Adam and Eve were designed to live forever while at the same time being dependant on God for life. We all have inherited this design being made in the image of God although we are also subject to the corruption that came with the fall.

Still it stands that believers have eternal life which is Jesus indwelling them.

This indwelling is the promise sealing their eternal destiny now.
 
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eleos1954

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Interesting response thanks and I appreciate the time you have put into it.

I have some issues with your thesis mainly because the text plainly says eternal life was/is given to believers rather than something promised for a later time.

There are several scriptures that confirm this.

I also believe that Adam and Eve were designed to live forever while at the same time being dependant on God for life. We all have inherited this design being made in the image of God although we are also subject to the corruption that came with the fall.

Still it stands that believers have eternal life which is Jesus indwelling them.

This indwelling is the promise sealing their eternal destiny now.
The plan of salvation was put in place before creation. The plan of salvation was in place for all of mankind ... with condition ... belief and trust in God.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.

Chose us (humanity) to be in the position of adoption (should we choose)

Christ died for all of humanity ... but one can (by choice) become an adopted son or daughter through Christ.

And he died for all, that those who live should (choice - conditional) no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again” (2 Corinthians 5:14-15; . In another passage Paul speaks of the hope believers have in God, “who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe” (choice-conditional) 1 Timothy 4:10.

John 11:25 ESV​

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes (choice-condtional) in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

Isaiah 53:6 ESV​

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all

Salvation is available to all. We know that anyone can come to Christ but there are conditions.

All were created in His image and created to be subject to Christ (out of love) ... but there are choices to be made in order to become adopted sons and daughters.

God is love (His image) ... all were and are created in love to love ... but an enemy showed up and sin and death entered the world ... but not all is lost .... one can choose Christ as their Lord & Savior ... and if they do there is a pathway to eternal life through Christ.

I also believe that Adam and Eve were designed to live forever

They were ... but they made a choice that forfeited that (forfeited eternal life) ... but because of the Love of God He put His salvation plan in place that one MIGHT (conditional) be saved.

So we are all designed/created to have eternal life ... yes (through Christ-conditional) ... but we are not inherently immortal in any way ... in fact we are inherently mortal (subject to death) ... the possibility of 2 deaths. This is not to say ... we inherited the sins of those before us ... but the fact is ALL have sinned ... all will sin ... and all are subject to death.

John 3:14–18—"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Whoever believes (choice-conditional) available for all.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The plan of salvation was put in place before creation. The plan of salvation was in place for all of mankind ... with condition ... belief and trust in God.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.

Chose us (humanity) to be in the position of adoption (should we choose)

Christ died for all of humanity ... but one can (by choice) become an adopted son or daughter through Christ.

And he died for all, that those who live should (choice - conditional) no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again” (2 Corinthians 5:14-15; . In another passage Paul speaks of the hope believers have in God, “who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe” (choice-conditional) 1 Timothy 4:10.

John 11:25 ESV​

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes (choice-condtional) in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

Isaiah 53:6 ESV​

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all

Salvation is available to all. We know that anyone can come to Christ but there are conditions.

All were created in His image and created to be subject to Christ (out of love) ... but there are choices to be made in order to become adopted sons and daughters.

God is love (His image) ... all were and are created in love to love ... but an enemy showed up and sin and death entered the world ... but not all is lost .... one can choose Christ as their Lord & Savior ... and if they do there is a pathway to eternal life through Christ.



They were ... but they made a choice that forfeited that (forfeited eternal life) ... but because of the Love of God He put His salvation plan in place that one MIGHT (conditional) be saved.

So we are all designed/created to have eternal life ... yes (through Christ-conditional) ... but we are not inherently immortal in any way ... in fact we are inherently mortal (subject to death) ... the possibility of 2 deaths. This is not to say ... we inherited the sins of those before us ... but the fact is ALL have sinned ... all will sin ... and all are subject to death.

John 3:14–18—"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Whoever believes (choice-conditional) available for all.

Thanks for your response - however you didn't address my quesion...

When one believes and is transferred in to the kingdom of light and indwelled by Jesus, several scriptures say we receive eternal life at that time - it is not something that begins later.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
 
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RileyG

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Some believe in a literal election of the saved from the beginning but lets not derail the thread
I believe the OP is an Anglican Christian so he doesn't accept TULIP or Calvinistic predestination.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I believe the OP is an Anglican Christian so he doesn't accept TULIP or Calvinistic predestination.
Actually these days there is a wide variance of theology in Anglican circles.

I meant by elect, those who are truly saved, and you can know if you are.
 
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