Conscientious Objector ?

[Mankin]

I kind of thought this would degenerate into some silliness. War is a sad fact of life in a world where evil rules by force. If we allow evil to have its way it destroys and robs all freedom from people. Peacemakers are not only those who behave as pacifists but also those who stand up for those who are innocent and attacked by evil. The New Testament talked about people like the Centurion but it no where told him to leave his job. In many ways wars are just larger events but they are often the same as police actions such as World War 2. The New Testament even saw government as something that can be looked at as being God established.

But I am not going to get into this because I think that there appears to some irrationality going on in this thread.

I completely agree with you.

 

[HeisNear]

I kind of thought this would degenerate into some silliness. War is a sad fact of life in a world where evil rules by force. If we allow evil to have its way it destroys and robs all freedom from people. Peacemakers are not only those who behave as pacifists but also those who stand up for those who are innocent and attacked by evil. The New Testament talked about people like the Centurion but it no where told him to leave his job. In many ways wars are just larger events but they are often the same as police actions such as World War 2. The New Testament even saw government as something that can be looked at as being God established.

But I am not going to get into this because I think that there appears to some irrationality going on in this thread.

Dear brother,

I suppose a peacemaker is the same as a warmaker. Now that is silly.

I am taking a huge risk in believing that you are accepting of the SOP. The Lord sent ... Waggoner and Jones ... commanded to be given to the world."


<E. J. Waggoner, “The War Spirit,” The Present Truth 12, 8 (February 20, 1896), p. 128.
The War Spirit.—“The ‘war spirit,’ as it is called,” says a London newspaper, “is more common just now than it has been since the Crimean days.” One symptom of it is seen in the demand for war histories and literature, which publishers are ready to supply, thus increasing the demand by cultivation of the spirit which glorifies deeds of blood and daring. Not only in this country but in America and elsewhere it is the same. School histories are very much to blame for stimulating the natural spirit of combativeness in the youth, and more than one recent writer on the serious outlook for the peace of nations has called attention to this propaganda of “patriotism,” which gives the child immoral ideas of what is glorious and honourable that bear evil fruit in after life."

What a prophetic statement on our society. The shows on TV, the video games, the war on Iraq, etc ...

John S.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Just thought about posting something from Sam Harris's book the End of Faith and since I found a site that has the section I was thinking of I would like to post it here as it is very applicable to this issue. Of course Harris is very anti-religious but some of this ideas are well stated.

The only way to rule out collateral damage would be to refuse to fight wars under any circumstances. As a foreign policy, this would leave us with something like the absolute pacifism of Gandhi. While pacifism in this form can constitute a direct confrontation with injustice (and requires considerable bravery), it is only applicable to a limited range of human conflicts. Where it is not applicable, it is seems flagrantly immoral. We would do well to reflect on Gandhi&#8217;s remedy for the Holocaust: he believed that the Jews should have committed mass suicide, because this &#8220;would have aroused the world and the people of Germany to Hitler&#8217;s violence.&#8221; We might wonder what a world full of pacifists would have done once it had grown &#8220;aroused&#8221;&#8212;commit suicide as well? There seems no question that if all the good people in the world adopted Gandhi&#8217;s ethics, the thugs would inherit the earth.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-torture_b_8993.html

 

[HeisNear]

Just thought about posting something from Sam Harris's book the End of Faith and since I found a site that has the section I was thinking of I would like to post it here as it is very applicable to this issue. Of course Harris is very anti-religious but some of this ideas are well stated.

I now understand,
It's not necessarily important to quote an anti religious author to make your point, it becomes very mute, to the point of the disregard of the Lord's messengers. Wish you would keep up on our own Israelic history.


Thanks for your conversation,

John S.

 

[Mankin]

I now understand,
It's not necessarily important to quote an anti religious author to make your point, it becomes very mute, to the point of the disregard of the Lord's messengers. Wish you would keep up on our own Israelic history.


Thanks for your conversation,

John S.

I know you are talking to the other person, but I am confused bhy the meaning of your post. What do you mean by Israelic history?

God bless you.

 

[HeisNear]

Sorry, but the only reason why Jesus said that was because Jesus wanted to teach Peter not to live by the sword. You are judging me too harshly. Like I said, if it was true that it was a sin to kill people, than David commited a sin when he killed Goliath.

Dear Brother,

I never used the word harshly, nor did I judge you. Judgment is the Lord's, He has the verdict, not me. As far as I am concerned we will see each other in heaven.

If Jesus taught Peter not to live by the sword, I will live by the same, certainly you will too. I would give you massive evidence against war in these last days, but I will not force the messengers of God upon you, unless you are open to them. It all depends on OUR willingness to "see" the truth and open our hearts for His special people. Truth is progressive, not stale.

blessings to you,

John






Take care,
John

 

[HeisNear]

So your view is that a Christian could not be a police officer? Should we have only Moslem law enforcement, or do you just assume that everyone is going to be a good Christian and there will never be a need for law enforcement.

I believe that God will protect us. He uses good and evil for an end to the means. I am not saying that there are not fine men and women who are not police officers.

I will say that I know of a woman police officer who came into the truth of the Sabbath. She did not work one Sabbath for 18 years. When she announced her claim to the Sabbath they asked her to work the Sabbath a month later. She fought and won with religious liberty.

I can only claim the writings of the Bible and the Lord's messengers. Perhaps I'm mistaken. Truth is progressive. The secular and "religious right" are in favor of war, this gives us some clues in and of itself. Let's be awakened to the last day truth and be separate according to the 3 angel's message.

<E. J. Waggoner, “War as It Is,” The Present Truth 11, 14 (April 4, 1895), p. 210.

It is not alone in the public press and in plays, and in books, and in magazines that young and old are taught that the art of killing is a glorious occupation, but even in the religious world the war spirit is very generally regarded as not wholly contrary to the spirit of Jesus Christ. So the Boys’ Brigades, which started in this kingdom, are increasing and have taken a firm hold on the popular taste in other lands, and youngsters are being taught to handle weapons of war. And beside all this, it is not supposed to be a blasphemous thing to dedicate a battle-ship with a prayer for the blessing of God upon its mission—the killing of human beings; and the idea is a popular one that one who is killed in the attempt to kill others is not unworthy of being classed with the martyr who lays down his life for others.
War, as it is, is not a waving of flags and plumes, and the performing of glorious, large-hearted deeds. It is barbarous butchery pure and simple, and no man can take part in it who doesn’t allow his better nature to sink into the savage. ...

The author is not writing against war, but how else could he characterise its work? It is a hellish thing, because it comes from Satan alone. Wherever the war spirit is being inculcated, there is Satan himself working. “They are the spirits of devils working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” The Gospel of Christ’s coming kingdom must of necessity separate the followers of Christ from the strifes of this world, and in this, as in other things, earthly governments will meet in the Christian one who cannot disobey God at the command of men.


John S.

 

[Mankin]

Dear Brother,

I never used the word harshly, nor did I judge you. Judgment is the Lord's, He has the verdict, not me. As far as I am concerned we will see each other in heaven.

If Jesus taught Peter not to live by the sword, I will live by the same, certainly you will too. I would give you massive evidence against war in these last days, but I will not force the messengers of God upon you, unless you are open to them. It all depends on OUR willingness to "see" the truth and open our hearts for His special people. Truth is progressive, not stale.

blessings to you,



John





What is your opinion then on soldiers, who are Christians, who have killed people. Do you think that they have sinned? I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I am just trying to make a point.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I now understand,
It's not necessarily important to quote an anti religious author to make your point, it becomes very mute, to the point of the disregard of the Lord's messengers. Wish you would keep up on our own Israelic history.

No I don't think you do understand. You have a mantra which is I think based upon false assumptions but we are living in a real world. Sam Harris' quote should in a logical conversation stimulate what you think the alternative, i.e. pacifist philosophy would do to stop the thugs from ruling the earth. Certainly God could choose to protect people but just as certainly He has not protected innocent people. You philosophy no matter how well intentioned would lead to chaos and the thugs truly inheriting the world. It is the reality that should make you re-evaluate you assumptions.

 

[DRL]

I do not know if any of you are old enough to remember but when I was in SDA schools there was a camp for the men of draft age run by the SDA church. It taught them all about basic training and being a conscientious objector. All three of my brothers were drafted during the Vietman era. All were COs. One was sent to Vietnam, the others stayed in the USA. The one that went to Vietnam came home safely.
When my son learned to read and started reading about war/airplanes, he fell in love with the military. He asked me many times, why the SDA church taught what it did about being COs and why God gave him an interest in the military. All I told him was to talk to God about it. He did and now he is an officer in the US Air Force. I am of the opinion that is where God wants him at this time. I also have 4 nephews who are policemen. God has each of them, where He wants them. Just my opinion from my life experience.
DRL

 

[Mankin]

No I don't think you do understand. You have a mantra which is I think based upon false assumptions but we are living in a real world. Sam Harris' quote should in a logical conversation stimulate what you think the alternative, i.e. pacifist philosophy would do to stop the thugs from ruling the earth. Certainly God could choose to protect people but just as certainly He has not protected innocent people. You philosophy no matter how well intentioned would lead to chaos and the thugs truly inheriting the world. It is the reality that should make you re-evaluate you assumptions.

Good point.

 

[CwazyfoGod]

I've read stories about Christians who have killed people in war. There is a man in my church who had killed a man in WWII. The thing is that it haunted him daily until he confessed it and gave it to God.

And see the man didnt' murder the enemy. He didnt' think before hand, he was doing it becuase he had to defend himself.

But his consequence was that it haunted him. So I don't think that its ever totally 'right' to kill someone. I mean I hate killing animals (insects, arachnids namely) just becuase I wouldn 't want to be dead either and I'd hate to have to kill something, but if its in self-defense (I have the second most poisounous spider in America in my house!) it makes it more-so right.

this was kinda confusing but if you get my point....

 

[Sophia7]

I've read stories about Christians who have killed people in war. There is a man in my church who had killed a man in WWII. The thing is that it haunted him daily until he confessed it and gave it to God.

And see the man didnt' murder the enemy. He didnt' think before hand, he was doing it becuase he had to defend himself.

But his consequence was that it haunted him. So I don't think that its ever totally 'right' to kill someone. I mean I hate killing animals (insects, arachnids namely) just becuase I wouldn 't want to be dead either and I'd hate to have to kill something, but if its in self-defense (I have the second most poisounous spider in America in my house!) it makes it more-so right.

this was kinda confusing but if you get my point....

Feeling bad about killing someone doesn't necessarily make it always wrong. I don't think killing in war or in self-defense is the same at all as murdering someone in cold blood or out of anger or revenge. If I had to kill someone, even if I believed it was the right thing to do, I have no doubt that it would be a haunting memory. That doesn't make it wrong, though. I wouldn't want to be in that position, but if I had to kill someone who was threatening the life of my child, for instance, I would.

By the way, what's the second-most poisonous spider in the U.S.? I know it's off topic, but just wondering. And why do you have a Sri Lanka flag? Are you from there but live in the U.S.?

 

[CwazyfoGod]

LOL as to the off topic question, the second most poisounos spider is the brown recluse. I infact caught one in my pants this morning! And my mother was from Sri Lanka and Sri Lanka's AWESOME!!!

And I like your point. It isn't always wrong. I mean yeah, God directed David to kill Thousands of philistines (not to mention saul wanted their foreskins.....) so I dont' think its always wrong (now anyways I kinda changed positions here) But should a christian carry a gun in a war???

 

[Sophia7]

LOL as to the off topic question, the second most poisounos spider is the brown recluse. I infact caught one in my pants this morning! And my mother was from Sri Lanka and Sri Lanka's AWESOME!!!

And I like your point. It isn't always wrong. I mean yeah, God directed David to kill Thousands of philistines (not to mention saul wanted their foreskins.....) so I dont' think its always wrong (now anyways I kinda changed positions here) But should a christian carry a gun in a war???

I think we should leave that up to the individual to decide according to his conscience because the Bible doesn't forbid Christians from carrying weapons in war. If someone does believe that it's wrong, though, I think he should follow his convictions and not be condemned for doing so.

My husband got bit by a brown recluse once when he was a kid. He likes to tell me the story since I hate spiders.

 

[Mankin]

If killing in war is wrong, then David commited a sin every time he killed a Phillistine.

 

[JonMiller]

Killing isn't best, that is why David wasn't allowed to build the Temple. But killing is sometimes needed, and isn't a sin (unlike Murder). The difference between not the best way to live and sin is a difference that can be seen over and over in the Bible, but that the SDA church seems to have missed.

JM

 

[Mankin]

Yep, they just label some of the not the way to live as sin.

 

[DrStupid_Ben]

I'm somewhat of a pacifist. Though I haven't worked through my position on the subject to any great certainty.

I really like the book The Peacemaking Remnant Morgan Douglas, ed (Silver Springs, MD: Adventist Peace Fellowship, 2005) It has some hard hitting articles and it includes a number of historical documents on the Adventist position on war. The basic premise of the book is that the idea of the biblical remnant (that holds a special place in the Adventist identity) is particularly tied to peacemaking. That is, standing for non-violence, being a prohetic witness to your time, and actively nurturing shalom (a wholeness and well-being of life, not just "peace") This is very much in opposition to the idea of the remnant as a specially elected group (with an exclusive ticket for escapeing this world) that only preaches doctrine to the world.
Check out www.adventistpeace.org


I'm not totally convinced about the killing/murder distinction. I personally think that it is a very convenient excuse for some people to chose to partake in an organisation that is set up, at the end of the day, to kill people. You can't expect an army to walk into a place like Iraq and not have to kill anyone. To me there is a huge amount of premeditation, particularly in this age of pre-emptive attacks.

I don't know what to do about the biblical examples of "God ordained" genocide. I certainly don't think that every war in the OT was a just war. I'm not even convinced that there is such a thing as a just war.

As I said, I haven't worked through it all yet.

 

[StormyOne]

Of course the possibility exists that just because the COI "said" that God instructed them to wipe out others doesn't mean He actually told them to do so....

I find it interesting that they were required to simply march around Jericho but in other cases they had to engage in combat... ever wonder why? I mean couldn't God simply drive out their enemies in all cases as opposed to them fighting?