Conscientious Objector ?

[catlover]

Are Adventists Conscientious Objectors?

 

[drgibson]

Personally since I wouldn't intentionally put my self in a situation where I had to potentially take a human life as part of my job I can honestly say that I am a conscientious Objector. However don’t for a moment think I won’t protect my family should the need arise.

Disclaimer: this in no way reflects the views of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventist.

 

[Sophia7]

You might find this interesting. It gives a historical timeline and explains briefly how the Adventist Church's official position has developed.
http://www.adventistchaplains.org/noncombatancy.htm

Also, here is an article on Desmond Doss, an Adventist who served in the U.S. Army as a medic during World War II. He was the first Conscientious Objector to win the Congressional Medal of Honor.
http://news.adventist.org/data/2006/02/1143202005/index.html.en

 

[drgibson]

Have you seen the move about Desmond? I saw it in the History channel awhile back.

God is Awsome.

 

[catlover]

Thank you for the links Sophia and thanks for replying drgibson!

 

[HeisNear]

You might find this interesting. It gives a historical timeline and explains briefly how the Adventist Church's official position has developed.
http://www.adventistchaplains.org/noncombatancy.htm

Also, here is an article on Desmond Doss, an Adventist who served in the U.S. Army as a medic during World War II. He was the first Conscientious Objector to win the Congressional Medal of Honor.
http://news.adventist.org/data/2006/02/1143202005/index.html.en

The websites are interesting indeed, thanks. Being in the military (Navy) at a young age gave me personal insights. I was from an agnostic home and was not a christian during my service. But ... God was working deeply on my heart strings.

My experience was the following in very close quarters stationed on a naval vessel. There were 30 men in my quarters, 3 bunks high, closely next to each other. The language was fowl. The jokes were dirty. The continual critical and condemning spirit was agonizing to continually listen to. The war spirit was horrifying to say the least.

The chaplain sight tended to lean towards favorable joining of the military. They did not give a fair and balanced report of the SOP.

One of the messengers the Lord sent endorsed by her, states,
That Rasmussen’s case is only faintly suggestive of what may yet follow in multiplied instances in every land, is indicated by the following taken from the Aarhus Folkeblad February 19:—
“One cannot comfort himself with the thought that this is an isolated case, for there will soon be many, I know of a certainty. We really come to the heart of the matter only when we see that such a man can come into a yet more serious situation in time of war. For according to what I have been able to learn by conversations with men belonging to the Seventh-day Adventists, they will absolutely refuse to go against an enemy with weapons in hand. They will hold themselves strictly to the fifth [sixth] commandment, ‘Thou shalt not kill.’ They will allow themselves to be killed, but they will not kill. If this is correct, and I believe it is, then these men are useless as soldiers, and may, if war should break out, come into the most deplorable condition in that they may be condemned to death, and put others in the painful situation of being obliged to pronounce so hard a sentence upon them.” E. J. Waggoner

blessings to you,
John S.

 

[Mankin]

Some are but not all. I am not. The commandments say Thou shall not murder. This is a difference between murdering someone and killing someone in self defense. If killing someone was a sin, then that means that David commited a sin each time he killed a Philistine. These are just my thoughts.

 

[HeisNear]

Some are but not all. I am not. The commandments say Thou shall not murder. This is a difference between murdering someone and killing someone in self defense. If killing someone was a sin, then that means that David commited a sin each time he killed a Philistine. These are just my thoughts.

Dear Brother,
Your thoughts ARE murderous. Christ told Peter to lay down his sword, oh well, we like death.

John

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Your thoughts ARE murderous. Christ told Peter to lay down his sword, oh well, we like death.

John

So do I take it by that comment that you think Police officers have murderous thoughts, as they carry weapons and sometimes use them in defense of themselves and others?

 

[HeisNear]

So do I take it by that comment that you think Police officers have murderous thoughts, as they carry weapons and sometimes use them in defense of themselves and others?

Greetings to you,
Jesus Christ was not a "police officer." We need to decide what we want to be. A peacemaker (Matt. 5)) or a warmaker. We are separate from the world. Let's ask God for us to be "born again." To be separate from the world is not popular, it's a sacrifice that most do not want to make.

blessings to you,

John

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

So your view is that a Christian could not be a police officer? Should we have only Moslem law enforcement, or do you just assume that everyone is going to be a good Christian and there will never be a need for law enforcement.

 

[Mankin]

Dear Brother,
Your thoughts ARE murderous. Christ told Peter to lay down his sword, oh well, we like death.

John

Sorry, but the only reason why Jesus said that was because Jesus wanted to teach Peter not to live by the sword. You are judging me too harshly. Like I said, if it was true that it was a sin to kill people, than David commited a sin when he killed Goliath.

 

[Mankin]

Greetings to you,
Jesus Christ was not a "police officer." We need to decide what we want to be. A peacemaker (Matt. 5)) or a warmaker. We are separate from the world. Let's ask God for us to be "born again." To be separate from the world is not popular, it's a sacrifice that most do not want to make.

blessings to you,

John

A police officer is NOT a warmaker. He is just trying to protect themselves and others by any means necessary. Let me ask you this question, if someone was about to kill one of your family members, would you not shoot that person to protect your family member?

 

[HeisNear]

A police officer is NOT a warmaker. He is just trying to protect themselves and others by any means necessary. Let me ask you this question, if someone was about to kill one of your family members, would you not shoot that person to protect your family member?

Blessings to you,

We will not think "small" when it comes to Christianity. 51 percent of America gets a divorce. The police force is much higher at 63 percent! The known factor is "abuse" on the wife! "Between you and the wife of your youth, with whom you have dealt treacherously ..." Mal. 2:14.

The question you asked me is, "if someone was about to kill one of your family members, would you not shoot that person to protect your family member?"

It's always interesting when someone asks a "philisophical" question in contrast to a biblical fact. Trust in the almighty God of the universe is essential. Christ commanded Peter to lay down his sword in order that Jesus could "DIE ON THE CROSS." That's the brave act!

I'm not into hypothisis (evolution). .... Regarding a true answer regarding the war in Iraq. "The Lord in His great mercy sent a most precious message through Elders Waggoner and Jones. That is, IF we "believe" in the SOP, which most SDA's do not.

"When one stops to consider how the war spirit is dominating the nations of earth, and what its nature is, it will be apparent that there are indeed “perilous times” ahead, and not far distant. The demon whom men call “the god of war” is stern, harsh, unyielding, unrelenting, and mercilessly cruel. The groans of the wounded and dying, and the wails of widows and orphans, are music to his ears. Men call him Mars, but he is well represented by the ancient Moloch, that brazen image into whose red-hot arms living children were flung, while the beating of drums and the blare of trumpets drowned their dying cries, or mingled with them to work the multitudes up to the highest pitch of frenzy. ...
“But there must be discipline in the army, or else its efficiency is at an end; and if partiality is shown there will be an end of discipline,” will be urged by many, and not last, by any means, by men who occupy the places of influence in the church. Think of the wickedness of such a defense! God and His law must be considered of secondary importance to the military machine! It is of more importance that the army should be maintained, than that God should be regarded! The mere statement of the case is sufficient to show that it is as gross paganism as ever existed. What hope can there be of peace on earth as long as such principles rule?
The situation will be worse in the future than it has ever been in the past, for war is now sanctioned by the professed ministers of the Gospel, as it has never been before. It is so easy for the rulers to raise the cry of “humanity” in justification of any war, or else there is always that magic word “patriotism;” and when a country is “Christian,” it is readily argued that to defend its “honor” is a Christian act; so that he who will refuse to disobey God’s law, “Thou shalt not kill,” will be condemned as a traitor to God in his country, and that even by the ministers of religion. E. J. Waggoner, “A Lesson in Obedience,” The Review and Herald 75, 41 (June 21, 1898), pp. 391, 392.

Church and State, War and Peace is syncronous when it comes to truth. May God have mercy on our souls.

John S.

 

[Mankin]

Blessings to you,

We will not think "small" when it comes to Christianity. 51 percent of America gets a divorce. The police force is much higher at 63 percent! The known factor is "abuse" on the wife!

The question you asked me is, "if someone was about to kill one of your family members, would you not shoot that person to protect your family member?"

It's always interesting when someone asks a "philisophical" question in contrast to a biblical fact. Trust in the almighty God of the universe is essential. Christ commanded Peter to lay down his sword in order that Jesus could "DIE ON THE CROSS." That's the brave act!

I'm not into hypothisis (evolution). .... Regarding a true answer regarding the war in Iraq. "The Lord in His great mercy sent a most precious message through Elders Waggoner and Jones. That is, IF we "believe" in the SOP, which most SDA's do not.

"When one stops to consider how the war spirit is dominating the nations of earth, and what its nature is, it will be apparent that there are indeed “perilous times” ahead, and not far distant. The demon whom men call “the god of war” is stern, harsh, unyielding, unrelenting, and mercilessly cruel. The groans of the wounded and dying, and the wails of widows and orphans, are music to his ears. Men call him Mars, but he is well represented by the ancient Moloch, that brazen image into whose red-hot arms living children were flung, while the beating of drums and the blare of trumpets drowned their dying cries, or mingled with them to work the multitudes up to the highest pitch of frenzy. ...
“But there must be discipline in the army, or else its efficiency is at an end; and if partiality is shown there will be an end of discipline,” will be urged by many, and not last, by any means, by men who occupy the places of influence in the church. Think of the wickedness of such a defense! God and His law must be considered of secondary importance to the military machine! It is of more importance that the army should be maintained, than that God should be regarded! The mere statement of the case is sufficient to show that it is as gross paganism as ever existed. What hope can there be of peace on earth as long as such principles rule?
The situation will be worse in the future than it has ever been in the past, for war is now sanctioned by the professed ministers of the Gospel, as it has never been before. It is so easy for the rulers to raise the cry of “humanity” in justification of any war, or else there is always that magic word “patriotism;” and when a country is “Christian,” it is readily argued that to defend its “honor” is a Christian act; so that he who will refuse to disobey God’s law, “Thou shalt not kill,” will be condemned as a traitor to God in his country, and that even by the ministers of religion. E. J. Waggoner, “A Lesson in Obedience,” The Review and Herald 75, 41 (June 21, 1898), pp. 391, 392.

Church and State, War and Peace is syncronous when it comes to truth. May God have mercy on our souls.

John S.

Sorry, but I fail to see your point. I never said that war was good. Sometimes, war is necessary. If the Revolutionary War had not taken place in America, I would not have the religious freedom that I enjoy(Denmark was the country of my grandfather). Do you believe that a police officer is a warmaker? I call them peacemakers for sometimes force must be applied to keep the peace.

 

[HeisNear]

Sorry, but I fail to see your point. I never said that war was good. Sometimes, war is necessary. If the Revolutionary War had not taken place in America, I would not have the religious freedom that I enjoy(Denmark was the country of my grandfather). Do you believe that a police officer is a warmaker? I call them peacemakers for sometimes force must be applied to keep the peace.

Spiritualism

Dear Brother,

You talk as if God foreordained the revolutionary war, as if He ordains war at all! God is full of compassion and mercy. Let's not indict God with foreordaining the revolutionary war. A reading of the scripture will point out that God never intended for sin to exist; the war spirit, that is Satan's invention. Evidently you did not consider the message the Lord sent. Let's not "assume" man's action of war for God's actions of peace. He never intended for war to exist. He hates sin. This is a hard concept for "christians."

Our age is full of contradictions, arising possibly from the new-born spirit of humanity asserting itself even more strongly against the old, and so we do not eat our slain, but by a sorry pleasantry pretend to respect their remains. We bury them, but we have slain them notwithstanding. Moreover, and this is a most significant fact, we make believe to be {21} ashamed of war. It has no defenders. It is doubtful if we shall ever hear again from the lips of any weight the paradox dear to Joseph de Maistre and Count von Moltke, that war is of Divine origin. We are leaving the blasphemous appeal to the God of Battles to races on lower rungs of the ladder of human progress, like the fanatical sectaries of Allah. We proclaim war to be evil, and lament its necessity.

This may be hypocrisy; but if hypocrisy is a homage paid by vice to virtue, we may conclude that the detestation of the crime of war has grown strong enough in humanity to extort a semblance of respect from the old and savage Adam.

<E. J. Waggoner, &#8220;The Facts and Hypotheses of Spiritualism,&#8221; The Present Truth 12, 2 (January 9, 1896), p. 21.

blessings to you,
John

 

[Mankin]

Spiritualism

Dear Brother,

You talk as if God foreordained the revolutionary war, as if He ordains war at all! God is full of compassion and mercy. Let's not indict God with foreordaining the revolutionary war. A reading of the scripture will point out that God never intended for sin to exist; the war spirit, that is Satan's invention. Evidently you did not consider the message the Lord sent. Let's not "assume" man's action of war for God's actions of peace. He never intended for war to exist. He hates sin. This is a hard concept for "christians."

Our age is full of contradictions, arising possibly from the new-born spirit of humanity asserting itself even more strongly against the old, and so we do not eat our slain, but by a sorry pleasantry pretend to respect their remains. We bury them, but we have slain them notwithstanding. Moreover, and this is a most significant fact, we make believe to be {21} ashamed of war. It has no defenders. It is doubtful if we shall ever hear again from the lips of any weight the paradox dear to Joseph de Maistre and Count von Moltke, that war is of Divine origin. We are leaving the blasphemous appeal to the God of Battles to races on lower rungs of the ladder of human progress, like the fanatical sectaries of Allah. We proclaim war to be evil, and lament its necessity.

This may be hypocrisy; but if hypocrisy is a homage paid by vice to virtue, we may conclude that the detestation of the crime of war has grown strong enough in humanity to extort a semblance of respect from the old and savage Adam.

<E. J. Waggoner, “The Facts and Hypotheses of Spiritualism,” The Present Truth 12, 2 (January 9, 1896), p. 21.

blessings to you,
John

I never said God ordanied the Revolutionary War. I just said that sometimes war is necessary.

 

[Mankin]

I never said God ordanied the Revolutionary War. I just said that sometimes war is necessary.

Self defense is a right, murder is a wrong which the Bible speaks against. True God never meant for war and killing to happen but I do not think he would hold anything against us if we killed someone to protect our lives or the lives of others.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I kind of thought this would degenerate into some silliness. War is a sad fact of life in a world where evil rules by force. If we allow evil to have its way it destroys and robs all freedom from people. Peacemakers are not only those who behave as pacifists but also those who stand up for those who are innocent and attacked by evil. The New Testament talked about people like the Centurion but it no where told him to leave his job. In many ways wars are just larger events but they are often the same as police actions such as World War 2. The New Testament even saw government as something that can be looked at as being God established.

But I am not going to get into this because I think that there appears to some irrationality going on in this thread.

 

[HeisNear]

I never said God ordanied the Revolutionary War. I just said that sometimes war is necessary.

If God does not ordain war why is it necessary? other than the fact of the war spirit by man himself. Spiritual logic IS necessary.

blessings to you,
John