Conjugal debt and theology of the body

[Gnarwhal]

Last week I was listening to a podcast and the guest mentioned in passing that Saint John Paul II said in one of his Theology of the Body teachings that the husband basically has to respect the wife if she doesn't wish to engage in the conjugal act—which I understand to a point. But how does that square with the Church's teaching on the conjugal debt?

Am I misunderstanding the nature of the marital debt? Am I missing context on Saint John Paul II's teaching? On the face of it, it seems like they're either contradicting each other or JP2's teaching supersedes the notion of the debt.

Either way I'm confused.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Last week I was listening to a podcast and the guest mentioned in passing that Saint John Paul II said in one of his Theology of the Body teachings that the husband basically has to respect the wife if she doesn't wish to engage in the conjugal act—which I understand to a point. But how does that square with the Church's teaching on the conjugal debt?

Am I misunderstanding the nature of the marital debt? Am I missing context on Saint John Paul II's teaching? On the face of it, it seems like they're either contradicting each other or JP2's teaching supersedes the notion of the debt.

Either way I'm confused.

Try collecting on a conjugal debt. It is the teaching but that doesn't mean you can collect. What is necessary is to be willing to pay your debts and your spouse to be willing to pay hers. What doesn't work is trying to collect. Both partners need to be giving and neither taking.

 

[pdudgeon]

Nailed it!

 

[Gnarwhal]

Try collecting on a conjugal debt. It is the teaching but that doesn't mean you can collect. What is necessary is to be willing to pay your debts and your spouse to be willing to pay hers. What doesn't work is trying to collect. Both partners need to be giving and neither taking.

I know, I'm not saying we should go around telling our spouses they "owe us" but I want to make sure we both learn the teaching properly before we enter into Holy Matrimony.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I know, I'm not saying we should go around telling our spouses they "owe us" but I want to make sure we both learn the teaching properly before we enter into Holy Matrimony.

We do owe each other. If we think otherwise we shouldn’t marry. If we are not willing to pay what we owe and more we are not marriage material. But if we relish the thought of collecting on what is due us we are in for a lot of pain and a probable divorce. John Paul is right in the context of what we owe each other, and affirms a marital right. More in the sense of a right given than a right to take.

 

[fide]

Justice - the return of what is due - and love - and patience - and mercy - are all one in God. No virtue contradicts another virtue; all are one thing in eternal Truth.

That said, we are all wounded creatures, with fractures and contradictions aplenty within ourselves. We must be especially patient, and merciful, forgiving one another as we need Him to forgive us.

 

[Gnarwhal]

We do owe each other. If we think otherwise we shouldn’t marry. If we are not willing to pay what we owe and more we are not marriage material. But if we relish the thought of collecting on what is due us we are in for a lot of pain and a probable divorce. John Paul is right in the context of what we owe each other, and affirms a marital right. More in the sense of a right given than a right to take.

So it's essentially a debt that we should never seek to collect on. If I desire my wife I shouldn't expect that she would ever want to fulfill that, only hope that she does?

 

[fide]

So it's essentially a debt that we should never seek to collect on. If I desire my wife I shouldn't expect that she would ever want to fulfill that, only hope that she does?

If I were in that situation, I would try to understand why she did not want conjugal love - what was the problem - and then patiently, and prayerfully, try to help her resolve the issue and come to desire it as the most beautiful natural human union that it is, and more importantly, the union that supernaturally and prophetically proclaims to the angels and to the couple, the holy mystery of Christ and his Church. (Eph 5:25-32).

This culture has and passes on to many a degraded and distorted and debased notion about this truly sacred union. Many, as a result, never grow past the self-centered lust of the moment, to see and enter that supernatural spiritual reality - and the supreme human dignity, and beauty, of it. A couple is losing much, if they do not come into that knowledge before they die.

 

[chevyontheriver]

So it's essentially a debt that we should never seek to collect on. If I desire my wife I shouldn't expect that she would ever want to fulfill that, only hope that she does?

You should both be fully willing to fulfill your debts. If either of you are unwilling you shouldn’t marry. Your body will be hers. If you don’t accept that don’t marry her. Her body will be yours. If she doesn’t agree, don’t marry her. You go in to marriage both eager to pay your debts and more. Don’t go in like a debt collector though. You both go in as givers.

 

[Gnarwhal]

You go in to marriage both eager to pay your debts and more. Don’t go in like a debt collector though. You both go in as givers.

Got it, see that phrasing makes sense to me. Thanks.