Congregational vs Presbyterian: What's the Difference?

[Picky Picky]

Within Anglicanism there are three emphases: Open Evangelicalism, Hookerite Latitudarianism, and Anglo-Catholicism. There are also wannabes called Crypto-Calvinists/Presbyterians and Anglo-Papists

In the Church of England, which I suppose is particularly varied, there is also a strong (increasing?) Conservative Evangelical element (represented by "Reform") — or are they your crypto-Calvinists, perhaps?

As to the question whether Calvinists are to be found in the Anglican churches, this was discussed during the Covenant talks between the CofE and the Methodists, and a joint commission asserted (in "Embracing the Covenant") that while majority opinion in the CofE is Arminian, there is also a Calvinist minority.

 

[WisdomTree]

Arminianism in Anglicanism!? I thought it would be more Catholic...

 

[PaladinValer]

In the Church of England, which I suppose is particularly varied, there is also a strong (increasing?) Conservative Evangelical element (represented by "Reform") — or are they your crypto-Calvinists, perhaps?

Again, (Open) Evangelicalism is not the same sort of Evangelicalism as found in Protestantism.

The Sydney types are definitely Cryptos, and I have a reliable source that has informed me that many of that sort are Crypto-ish, if not completely.

As to the question whether Calvinists are to be found in the Anglican churches, this was discussed during the Covenant talks between the CofE and the Methodists, and a joint commission asserted (in "Embracing the Covenant") that while majority opinion in the CofE is Arminian, there is also a Calvinist minority.

It really isn't some much a debate between Calvinist vs. Arminian but how the 39 Articles have been historically interpreted...or rather, I should say how those Articles can be interpreted and how they were allowed to be interpreted historically. Really, many are vague, and for good reason, and if memory serves, King Charles I or one of the other Steuarts had a law passed effectively ending all debate on how they were to be interpreted in any official manner...which of course officially interprets them to be vague!

Arminianism in Anglicanism!? I thought it would be more Catholic...

It is. We still use the Deuterocanonicals, believe in the Real Presence, have valid bishops in Apostolic Succession, etc. Soteriologically, my church's Articles are absurdly vague on the subject, so we turn to its essential trait of lex orandi lex credendi, which leans towards theosis.

Of course, as you yourself are certainly aware, not everyone is going to agree; your own church is just as notorious as mine is when it comes to keeping inline to official doctrines and practices, but that doesn't change what is official.

 

[Picky Picky]

Arminianism in Anglicanism!? I thought it would be more Catholic...

Oh, I may have exaggerated with "majority" — if so I apologise. But my impression was that in the CofE moderate Evangelicals as well as Broad Church and many High Church have held for centuries a sort of English Arminianism. And intuition tells me that although the Broad Church does not make much noise, compared with those on the Conservative Evangelical and Anglo-Catholic wings, it may be much more numerous than either, especially perhaps in rural areas.

 

[WisdomTree]

Oh, I may have exaggerated with "majority" — if so I apologise. But my impression was that in the CofE moderate Evangelicals as well as Broad Church and many High Church have held for centuries a sort of English Arminianism. And intuition tells me that although the Broad Church does not make much noise, compared with those on the Conservative Evangelical and Anglo-Catholic wings, it may be much more numerous than either, especially perhaps in rural areas.

Aren't English Arminians Methodists? From how I saw things in Anglicanism, you were either Evangelical/Reformed or Catholic.

 

[PaladinValer]

Aren't English Arminians Methodists?

No for two reasons:

1. Arminianism is a soteriology, not a churchship within Anglicanism
2. The Methodists unfortunately didn't adhere to the Wesleys' wishes and left my church. They aren't Anglicans.

From how I saw things in Anglicanism, you were either Evangelical/Reformed or Catholic.

The Anglican Communion is Catholic and protestant. We adhere to all the Catholicity of the Christian religion and reject anything added to it or things that were additionally defined that are either extra-Ecumenical or are things not brought up Ecumenically in the first place.

 

[WisdomTree]

No for two reasons:

1. Arminianism is a soteriology, not a churchship within Anglicanism
2. The Methodists unfortunately didn't adhere to the Wesleys' wishes and left my church. They aren't Anglicans.



The Anglican Communion is Catholic and protestant. We adhere to all the Catholicity of the Christian religion and reject anything added to it or things that were additionally defined that are either extra-Ecumenical or are things not brought up Ecumenically in the first place.

What I meant was, aren't English Arminians a part of a separate denomination from Anglicans like the Dutch Arminians being part of the Remonstrance and not part of the Dutch Reformed Church.

 

[PaladinValer]

What I meant was, aren't English Arminians a part of a separate denomination from Anglicans like the Dutch Arminians being part of the Remonstrance and not part of the Dutch Reformed Church.

No. There are still many who hold to an Arminian understanding of soteriology (note: soteriology, which is what it is; it isn't a theology of anything else) and are members of the Anglican Communion.

 

[WisdomTree]

No. There are still many who hold to an Arminian understanding of soteriology (note: soteriology, which is what it is; it isn't a theology of anything else) and are members of the Anglican Communion.

In that case, wouldn't it be a minority? Considering the dominance of Calvinism and Catholicism on the Isles.

 

[PaladinValer]

In that case, wouldn't it be a minority? Considering the dominance of Calvinism and Catholicism on the Isles.

I think I see the issue here.

You are treating Catholicism and Calvinism as if they are comparable in all things; they are not. Catholicism isn't just soteriology but is, in fact, all the beliefs and doctrines of the Undivided Early Church. Calvinism is a mere soteriology.

I would invite you to visit us in STR, the Anglican/Old Catholic forum, to get a better idea of how these things work, as we're getting off-topic here.

 

[WisdomTree]

I think I see the issue here.

You are treating Catholicism and Calvinism as if they are comparable in all things; they are not. Catholicism isn't just soteriology but is, in fact, all the beliefs and doctrines of the Undivided Early Church. Calvinism is a mere soteriology.

I would invite you to visit us in STR, the Anglican/Old Catholic forum, to get a better idea of how these things work, as we're getting off-topic here.

I was speaking strictly in terms of soteriology. From what I gather, there are five mainstream viewpoints that are not considered outright heretical.

 

[PaladinValer]

I was speaking strictly in terms of soteriology. From what I gather, there are five mainstream viewpoints that are not considered outright heretical.

Okay, but even within Catholic understanding, there are at least two views, including that of your own Vatican Catholic Church and that of St. John Cassian. Therefore, it is not accurate to suggest that even Catholicism is monolithic.

 

[WisdomTree]

Okay, but even within Catholic understanding, there are at least two views, including that of your own Vatican Catholic Church and that of St. John Cassian. Therefore, it is not accurate to suggest that even Catholicism is monolithic.

But we can simplify it.

By the way, as OP, I say we can go as off-topic as possible.

 

[PaladinValer]

But we can simplify it.

No, we can't. We can go to a common denominator, but there are specifics in each that aren't in complete agreement. It isn't logical to deny that fact.

 

[bbbbbbb]

But we can simplify it.

By the way, as OP, I say we can go as off-topic as possible.

 

[Monseigneur_Gentilhomme]

Think of the Reformed Churches as a scale rather than seperate institutions for a moment.......you have Reformed Anglicanisn (high end)-------Scottish Presbyterianism---------American Presbyterianism(a bit lower)--------Continental Reformed polity (Dutch being a bit higher than the French)-------then congregationalists (the lowest with high and low ends within them: Mather/Owen being a high congregationalist and Edwards a low).

 

[Monseigneur_Gentilhomme]

I refuse to touch anglicanlism. It's too bizzare and has so many factions within (see sydney anglicanism v. african conservativism, v. north american liberal v. north american conservative v. north american evangelical, v. british evangelical, v. south american evangelical). so many tendancies and views of the church, sacraments, salvation, worship, views on bishops, etc.