Confusing beliefs...help

kbean · Jul 30, 2004

I am really confused. My closest and only Christian friend is striving for perfection and tells me no one enters the Kingdom without achieving it. Is this true? I don't want to stay in my sin intentionally but...is perfection possible with our inherent sin nature? Didn't Christ die for us because we ourselves can never achieve perfect righteousness> Does any one here know some one who has achieved sinlessness?
She insists she is right on this, and backs herself up with scripture confidently. I am open to correction as long is it is based on truth...can someone tell me? Is Grace what saves us, and our Faith, or is it really being righteousness and perfection that sees us into the Kingdom?
I am having a hard time continuing to be close to her and spending time with her as she gets very staunch about those who have not achieved perfection. Or are at least striving for it.

EmSchmem · Jul 30, 2004

Well. Honestly what do you think? I know that's not what you're looking for but in your heart of hearts, based on the scripture that YOU know what do you think?

bliz · Jul 30, 2004

kbean said:
I...is perfection possible with our inherent sin nature? Didn't Christ die for us because we ourselves can never achieve perfect righteousness> Does any one here know some one who has achieved sinlessness?

You are asking the perfect questions and you have the right answer. Your one and only Christian friend is wrong on this point. If we were capable of living perfect lives on our own, we would not need the blood of Jesus Christ in payment for our sins and Jesus would have suffered and died for no reason.

(I should mention that there are some Christians who do believe that we can live sinless lives, but they are very small in number.)

Jesus's command that that we be perfect is a goal, an unreachable goal. We should always keep striving toward that goal even as we know that we will always fall short. Paul says it so very well:

Romans 7
14We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am a creature of the flesh [carnal, unspiritual], having been sold into slavery under [the control of] sin.
15For I do not understand my own actions [I am baffled, bewildered]. I do not practice or accomplish what I wish, but I do the very thing that I loathe [[1] which my moral instinct condemns].
16Now if I do [habitually] what is contrary to my desire, [that means that] I acknowledge and agree that the Law is good (morally excellent) and that I take sides with it.
17However, it is no longer I who do the deed, but the sin [principle] which is at home in me and has possession of me.
18For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot perform it. [I have the intention and urge to do what is right, but no power to carry it out.]
19For I fail to practice the good deeds I desire to do, but the evil deeds that I do not desire to do are what I am [ever] doing.
20Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I doing it [it is not myself that acts], but the sin [principle] which dwells within me [[2] fixed and operating in my soul].

Are you finding some other people who can help you learn and grow? Have you fouond a good teaching church?

helmikaarina · Jul 30, 2004

Ephesians 2:8 - 10 said:
God's grace has saved you because of your faith in Christ. Your salvation doesn't come from anything you do. It is God's gift. It is not based on anything you have done. No one can brag about earning it. God made us. He created us to belong to Christ Jesus. Now we can do good things. Long ago God prepared them for us to do.

Everything is God's grace.

Rage4Christ · Jul 30, 2004

kbean Sincere choices to live a good life. If you can make the best choices possible given the information and environment you happen to be in, then Christ is happy.

For your friend to have this "ideal" out there that is absolutely the only way to find Christ, this nullifies individuality. Why did God create personality, if only one type of person can be "perfect."

It makes no sense. Rather than confront her own personal struggles as unique to her, she universalizes her condition with the world. This may be pride. THis maybe ego. But I think this is because she doesn't want to confront her own issues, nor does she want to have empathy for others.

daveleau · Jul 30, 2004

We should strive to be like Christ (perfect), but we should know that the flesh is weak and that we are unable to be perfect. Jesus said: There is none righteous, no not one. So, she is right to strive for perfection, but she should approach those who do mess up with love and not judgment. We are not to judge people, but to judge actions as right and wrong. We are under God's grace and the protection of the Blood of Christ. So, while we should strive for perfection, we are still bound in Christ if/when we fail.

Rafael · Jul 31, 2004

We are made perfect only in Christ. In Him we are sinless, and because of His righteousness - not ours. Those who abide in the Word of God are clean from all their sins.
Now sin dwells in the flesh which still is due corruption, but the new man (or woman) of the spirit is of God and desires sinlessness. The spirit and flesh battle until the day we die. As the verse above in Bliz's post says, sin dwelleth in the flesh, but the desire of the spirit is of God and sinless because of Christ's abiding Spirit that is in union with our own.
I used to get confused with this too, but verses like 1 John 3:6, 8;5:18 have to be read along with Romans 7:17,18 - knowing that sin dwells in our flesh but not in our spirits that want to please God and are new creations in Christ.
So then, our job is to fight the desires of the flesh and keep them under control of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:17 (LIV) For we naturally love to do evil things that the Holy Spirit tells us not to do; and the good things we want to do when the Holy Spirit has His way with us are just the opposite of our natural desires. These two forces within us are constantly fighting each other to win control over us, and our wishes are never free from their pressures.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

just_dance · Jul 31, 2004

Jesus was perfect he was and is the only one the only way to heaven is praying that you are forgiven. There is no perfect person that is why Jesus died for us because God gave us freewill if we were perfect we wouldn't need him or Jesus to help us. There is nothing that is perfect on Earth and won't be untill he returns. But we must put our faith in his so we won't make the wrong decitions.

Nater_Tater · Aug 1, 2004

I agree with Bliz, if it were possible for a person to live without sin, than the sacrifice that Christ made would be pointless.

But what concerns me is your friend. Does she claim to be perfect? If you are her friend, you will read to her

Luke 18:9-14

(9) To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: (10) "two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. (11) The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men-robbers, evildoers, adulterers-or even like this tax collector. (12) I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

(13) "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' (14) "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

If she believes that she is perfect, than she is guilty of Pride

Proverbs 11:2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes
wisdom.

Patdoggydogg · Aug 1, 2004

keyword=perfection

noones perfact

wayfaring man · Aug 3, 2004

Satan is an opportunist / extremist .

If we're leaning towards putting unrealistic requirements upon ourself , he'll stress the need for perfection in such a way that we deny the Lord's glory , and scorn those for whom he died .

But if we're prone to accept " lame excuses " for sinful behavior , the devil will emphatically declare that none of what we do has any bearing or significance .

Either way , he deceives , and we are under his control , as propagators of his lies .

Consider :

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. <-----> Matthew 7:21-23

If our faith in Christ doesn't lead to Jesus leading us out of the ways of iniquity ; then , we are warned , He will reject our soul . For this is fundamentally why God has given us the spirit of faith .

iniquity-means that which is : unequal , unfair , unjust , immoral .

Yet , we are also told : "the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation ." <---> From 2nd Peter 3:15

Meaning that the Lord bears with us in our struggle to fully follow His good and perfect will , and if He were not longsuffering to us ward , none would be saved . Hence , it is only fair that we be longsuffering with each other .

Now consider these two emphases of the same declaration of our Lord Jesus -

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. <-----> Matthew 5:48

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. <-----> Luke 6:36

And know then , that any " perfection " which isn't equally intensely "merciful " is iniquity and therefore not of God !

And know also , that any " mercifulness " which doesn't equally stress the need to repent of our sins , and embrace Christ's " perfectness ", is iniquity as well !

Thanks be to God ! Amen !

wm

Truly Blessed · Aug 3, 2004

Patdoggydogg said:
keyword=perfection
noones perfact

Disagree, Their was one that was and is perfect. Jesus
And we are to try to be like him although we can never succeed.

John 10:10 · Aug 3, 2004

The key is to be a slave to righteousness, instead of a slave to sin. Paul declares this in Romans 6:

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

If you read about the lives of Madame Guyon, Reese Howells, Hudson Taylor, Corrie ten Boom, and many many others, you will find a life of holiness represented there that far exceeds the standard most Christians consider acceptable today. Do we keep lowering the bar by telling Christians they can't help being slaves to sin, or do we tell them they can be a slave to righteousness?

Blessings

EmSchmem · Aug 3, 2004

Has anyone ever noticed that those people never have their negative attributes in thei biographies? I doubt it's because they don't have them.

wayfaring man · Aug 3, 2004

Yes , people are sometimes put on an unrealistic pedestal , by their admirers .

Yet , consider : ... above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. <-----> 1st Peter 4:8

There also may be good reason some people's " negative attributes " are neither recognized nor remembered by their peers .

Praise Jesus !

wm

Iosias · Aug 4, 2004

kbean said:
I am really confused. My closest and only Christian friend is striving for perfection and tells me no one enters the Kingdom without achieving it. Is this true? I don't want to stay in my sin intentionally but...is perfection possible with our inherent sin nature? Didn't Christ die for us because we ourselves can never achieve perfect righteousness> Does any one here know some one who has achieved sinlessness?
She insists she is right on this, and backs herself up with scripture confidently. I am open to correction as long is it is based on truth...can someone tell me? Is Grace what saves us, and our Faith, or is it really being righteousness and perfection that sees us into the Kingdom?
I am having a hard time continuing to be close to her and spending time with her as she gets very staunch about those who have not achieved perfection. Or are at least striving for it.

You are saved by faith alone! Your friend obviously does not understand that so how about you two do a Bible study upon it. What scriptures does she use to defend her position?!

Sketcher · Aug 4, 2004

Ephesians 2:8-10

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. "

We are saved by faith, but as this fella pointed out,

John 10:10 said:
The key is to be a slave to righteousness, instead of a slave to sin. Paul declares this in Romans 6:

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

If you read about the lives of Madame Guyon, Reese Howells, Hudson Taylor, Corrie ten Boom, and many many others, you will find a life of holiness represented there that far exceeds the standard most Christians consider acceptable today. Do we keep lowering the bar by telling Christians they can't help being slaves to sin, or do we tell them they can be a slave to righteousness?

Blessings

Sin is not an option. It is terrible to sin. Though faith saves us, we are to live increasingly righteous lives. In fact, righteousness is a fruit of the kind of faith God is looking for. "Jesus, You died for me, so I will do what is right. Lord, You made me a new creation, so I will do what is right."

wayfaring man · Aug 4, 2004

Yea , faith which doesn't lead to reform , can hardly cause revival !

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. <-----> James 2:14-26

Dead faith = Presumption

And :

Presumption is the counterfeit of faith ; and it is the worst form of unbelief , because it cannot admit that it does not believe already .

^ This has the Spirit spoken to me ^

Seeking the Truth in the Light of God's Love ,

wm

kbean · Aug 6, 2004

Awesome input all of you...lots of thought put into your replies, praise God's word!!

I will go home, read the many scriptures pointed out here and decide for myself, between God and me. I will not worry about anyone else's (my friend esp.) interpretation of the scriptures, for in the end we are only accountable for our own decisions right!

Thanks to all for your input.

desi · Aug 6, 2004

You have to do what you know better, which usually isn't perfection so much as striving for it.

Confusing beliefs...help

"Seek and you shall find"

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