Confused

[Blissman]

Whitehorse - Are you saying that 'original sin' is sex, or is it man having disobeyed The Lord by eating from the tree of knowlege? IMHO it would be the later, and we are now burdoned with the ability to know and to choose truth. I don't understand how genetics has anything to do with this. Genetics is an idea of man. Gregor Mandel is not in either the NT or the OT.

To Lyle:
Eternal Damnation ?

A major falter people hit today is making Christ just a little below God... A little below misses the whole point and is total error

1 Tim 1

The Lord's Grace to Paul

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Whitehorse - Are you saying that 'original sin' is sex, or is it man having disobeyed The Lord by eating from the tree of knowlege? IMHO it would be the later, and we are now burdoned with the ability to know and to choose truth. I don't understand how genetics has anything to do with this. Genetics is an idea of man. Gregor Mandel is not in either the NT or the OT.

To Lyle:
Eternal Damnation ?

1 Tim 1

The Lord's Grace to Paul

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus

I certainly believe you're right-it's the latter. What I'm saying is, this sinful nature is passed on from generation to generation. Looking at it from another angle, why did God select the means He did for Jesus's birth?

Moreover, genetics is a God-given reality observed by Mandel, not invented by him. We cannot escape this sin nature-no one has except for Christ. We can only choose what is right in accordance with the grace given us, but none except Christ are without this sin nature. And He was the only one born of a virgin. He was fully God, but also fully human. Which would make one wonder if this had anything to do with the fact that Joseph was absent from the picture.

It is reasonable to question whther the sin exists only in the presence of the body or in the soul as well. The answer may depend on whther or not a person is redeemed. Those who are with Christ are completely cleansed of their sin upon their entrance to the next world while those who are not in Christ are not and never will be. So it isn't really clear; is it a mix of both? Who knows.

What I do know is that sin is inherent in all humans except Jesus, and that he was the only one who escaped the regular birth process. And since He was fully human, I cannot help wondering if there is a connection between the two.

 

[Blissman]

Technically, there have been a few people who were born virginally, although it is extreemly rare. Sometimes due to a birth defect, a person who would have born as a twin is born with a fetus inside of them (they are literally born pregnant), however they never survive.

I have no idea what will happen when man fools around with nature. Recently, scientists had created sperm and had used it to impregnate a mouse.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1894&e=2&u=/ap/20031210/ap_on_sc/stem_cells_sperm

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Technically, there have been a few people who were born virginally, although it is extreemly rare. Sometimes due to a birth defect, a person who would have born as a twin is born with a fetus inside of them (they are literally born pregnant), however they never survive.

I have no idea what will happen when man fools around with nature. Recently, scientists had created sperm and had used it to impregnate a mouse.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1894&e=2&u=/ap/20031210/ap_on_sc/stem_cells_sperm

Do either of the twins survive, or do they both die? I know doctors are making advances in in-utero surgery, but this-how do you catch something like that on ultrasound? In fact, how do they think to check for something like that? That is truly bizarre.

 

[Blissman]

The 'baby that would have been otherwise have been born' die. Sometimes the fetus is found in male children. They are usually discovered when the child, or in some cases an adult, when the 'parent' goes to have an appendex removed.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Wow-that is really wild. I can imagine that would really take someone by surprise! Imagine hearing *that* from the doctor!

But at least there is still a father involved, so while it isn't your typical scenario, Jesus's situation would still be unique.

 

[Lyle]

There are millions of Jews that might disagree with you on that one, just for starters. Certainly, reasonable, informed, and sincere people can disagree on this issue.

People could disagree about anything.. But there is so much evidence that many overlook that could point to none other then Christ... Not to mention the fact that for one man to fulfill just a few of these creates extremely slim odds...

 

[Lyle]

Who gave you the authority to d@mn people to Hell?

It is not my authority or call, it's what it says in the Bible... Plain and simple

 

[Lyle]

Just to play the devil's advocate a little, I have to ask, with Christ being "GOD" and all, should we recognize Jesus as having equal responsibility with all of the terrible atrocities God did and condoned and instructed His children to do in the O.T.?

Terible, huh? Define terrible as God would see it. Maybe look a bit deeper into the why, of why these events took place, and the history of the people they fought with... maybe looking into all of that, then studing God's chacter, you'd get you answer.

Or is there some magic line of separation, where Jesus really is somehow seperated from God as having equal cause of these things?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was."

No...

 

[Lyle]

I have found that the legalistic religionist is the least spiritual of all. When I watch the legalistic religionist, I have find myself wondering, with out spiritual awareness, how close to God can they truly get?

Define.. Normal and true born again Christians? Or those from TBN? There are so many people walking around that aren't truely Christians yet bear the name of God and are a disgrace to Christianity....

 

[Lyle]

To Lyle:
Eternal Damnation ?

Ok, maybe you can explain further, because that made no sense at all....

 

[dlamberth]

It is not my authority or call, it's what it says in the Bible... Plain and simple

I still see a non-spiritual "Legalistic Religionist".

May I suggest to you a spiritual journey of opening ones heart up to God such that even when you think that they have found God, you continues seeking Him. This is NOT a legalistic journey that I'm pointing towards. It's very spiritual in nature and creates a personal experiential knowing with in ones heart and soul of God that is not based upon a Legalistic Religionist non-spiritual perspective.

..

 

[dlamberth]

dlamberth = I have found that the legalistic religionist is the least spiritual of all. When I watch the legalistic religionist, I have found myself wondering, with out spiritual awareness, how close to God can they truly get?

Define.. Normal and true born again Christians? Or those from TBN? There are so many people walking around that aren't truely Christians yet bear the name of God and are a disgrace to Christianity....

This really does not relate to what I'm pointing towards at all. When I find myself wondering about Legalistic Religionist lack of spiritual awareness, I wish for them to learn another way, a more spiritual way for knowing God and for sharing God with others.

I'm pointing towards exploring the mystery of Christ, about being transformed and exploring what that means. Or, for a Christian, riding the Love of Christ like an arrow to where each aspect of the trinity become One. Exploring what that means. These aren't legalistic things. These are where a person actually gets in there and explores the mystery. It's also about looking into the heart of your fellow human beings and seeing their joy their laughter, their love, their hurt and suffering and watching to see the mystery at work there as well.

..

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Forgive me, Dlamberth, but I'm fascinated by this discussion. Can you explain what you mean by leagalistic? Are you referring to Pharisaical? Without knowing what you're referring to, at face value I would say that Jesus Christ would agree.

But legalistic is often interpreted differently. I'd be pleased to discuss it further with you, but I'm not sure what we're talking about yet.

 

[dlamberth]

Forgive me, Dlamberth, but I'm fascinated by this discussion. Can you explain what you mean by leagalistic? Are you referring to Pharisaical? Without knowing what you're referring to, at face value I would say that Jesus Christ would agree.

But legalistic is often interpreted differently. I'd be pleased to discuss it further with you, but I'm not sure what we're talking about yet.

As you know, I’m not a Christian, with that in mind, please understand that I my explanation may come up short with in the proper Christian perspective. But in a manor as short as possible, I hope that what I present here helps you understand what I’m talking about.

As I see it, in some, the approach to Christianity seems to be centered around the rules as set out in the Bible. They judge others and events based solely upon those rules. The Bible becomes their source for legal interpretation of all matters, even those that really ought to be spiritual in nature. Using the chant of “It’s in the Bible” with out the insight that also comes from higher spiritual understanding, in my opinion, limits one to the realms of Legalistic Religionist.

The other side of the coin, again from my understanding, is where the spiritual element is added to ones perception of understanding. I’d liken it to viewing life through the eyes of Christ. The Word becomes alive with light as it becomes the lens through which ones heart and soul opens up to life. This lens through which one looks upon all of life than, depicts an understanding of the mystery of Christ and of life as one sees with a deeper and with a wider perception, everything around them, than the Legalistic Religionist is able to.

Does this help to build a starting point? So what about you? What do you see regarding Legalistic Religionist? I'm curious as to what your looking at?

..

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I think your post was perfect. Amen. I probably don't need to qualify at all, but I will just to be precise, that while the Bible is the authority, I agree completely that there are those who cannot see what God meant by it. And those are usually the people who tend not to see their own sin. (Just everyone else's. )

 

[Brother Owl]

As you know, I’m not a Christian, with that in mind, please understand that I my explanation may come up short with in the proper Christian perspective. But in a manor as short as possible, I hope that what I present here helps you understand what I’m talking about.

As I see it, in some, the approach to Christianity seems to be centered around the rules as set out in the Bible. They judge others and events based solely upon those rules. The Bible becomes their source for legal interpretation of all matters, even those that really ought to be spiritual in nature. Using the chant of “It’s in the Bible” with out the insight that also comes from higher spiritual understanding, in my opinion, limits one to the realms of Legalistic Religionist.

The other side of the coin, again from my understanding, is where the spiritual element is added to ones perception of understanding. I’d liken it to viewing life through the eyes of Christ. The Word becomes alive with light as it becomes the lens through which ones heart and soul opens up to life. This lens through which one looks upon all of life than, depicts an understanding of the mystery of Christ and of life as one sees with a deeper and with a wider perception, everything around them, than the Legalistic Religionist is able to.

Does this help to build a starting point? So what about you? What do you see regarding Legalistic Religionist? I'm curious as to what your looking at?

..

"I’d liken it to viewing life through the eyes of Christ. The Word becomes alive with light as it becomes the lens through which ones heart and soul opens up to life. This lens through which one looks upon all of life than, depicts an understanding of the mystery of Christ and of life as one sees with a deeper and with a wider perception, everything around them, than the Legalistic Religionist is able to."

The above exerpt, completely went by me. I need a more elementary break down to grasp what you're trying to say.

Thanks!

 

[dlamberth]

"I’d liken it to viewing life through the eyes of Christ. The Word becomes alive with light as it becomes the lens through which ones heart and soul opens up to life. This lens through which one looks upon all of life than, depicts an understanding of the mystery of Christ and of life as one sees with a deeper and with a wider perception, everything around them, than the Legalistic Religionist is able to."

The above exerpt, completely went by me. I need a more elementary break down to grasp what you're trying to say.

May I answer by starting with a question? How would one bring God down here to earth and to make Him a reality in this life time where He is needed the most? I would think that as a Christian, learning to view life as Christ viewed it might be important. I think also that it might be important to also treat those in need, as Christ might, as well. Which begs the question: How does Christ view life and how does he treat those in need? The Bible can be a good starting place, but I honestly think that eventually, a Christian has to learn to turn directly, in a spiritual sence, to Christ, and to open their heart and souls to the mystery that Christ, is. Am I suggesting that you need to leave the Bible behind? For a Christian, no way!! Yet, I do suggest that the Bible ALSO points towards a mystery beyond itself. A mystery, with in the Light of God Himself, that we may also know and experience.

Remember, I'm not a Christian, so what do I know other than it appears to me that a lot of Christians really do not seem to grasp the spiritual aspects of knowing God.

..

 

[Brother Owl]

May I answer by starting with a question? How would one bring God down here to earth and to make Him a reality in this life time where He is needed the most? I would think that as a Christian, learning to view life as Christ viewed it might be important. I think also that it might be important to also treat those in need, as Christ might, as well. Which begs the question: How does Christ view life and how does he treat those in need? The Bible can be a good starting place, but I honestly think that eventually, a Christian has to learn to turn directly, in a spiritual sence, to Christ, and to open their heart and souls to the mystery that Christ, is. Am I suggesting that you need to leave the Bible behind? For a Christian, no way!! Yet, I do suggest that the Bible ALSO points towards a mystery beyond itself. A mystery, with in the Light of God Himself, that we may also know and experience.

Remember, I'm not a Christian, so what do I know other than it appears to me that a lot of Christians really do not seem to grasp the spiritual aspects of knowing God.

..

Well I won't argue with "...a lot of Christians really do not seem to grasp the spiritual aspects of knowing God."

The above is a process (knowing God). God is demonstratively LOVE. Love possesses power unshakable. It has no fear, is full of compassion, long-suffering, forgiving, generous, kind, etc., etc. When one is awakened in spirit (brought to life) by the indwelling Spirit of God (baptism from death to life) one experiences the profound and incomprehensible Love that God has for humanity. What follows is a learning process whereby we are then called upon by God to share His Love with others as He's shares His Love with us. This action of the expression of God's Love through us is totally selfless and wholly God empowered. Therein lies the difficulty, we must be willing in no uncertain terms to give up our lives to God for His indwelling Spirit and the outpouring His Love.

 

[Brother Owl]

To follow up: When our spirit is brought to life and are eyes are opened anew, we are all at once aware of two things: all humanity dwells in abject hopelessness without this spiritual re-birth. We ourselves are aware we were previously dead! Not only dead but a living, stinking, and rotting death. As is our body, so was our spirit, decaying while it yet lived. Living death! That is the carnal mind, living death and decay. It is wholly at enmity with the Living Eternal Life Giving Renewing Spirit of the Incorruptible God.

What Christians need to be reminded of DAILY is from whence we came. When I as a Christian walk in "spiritual" pride then I walk as one returning to the dead, and abandoning my new life. The same is true when I give myself over to sin, and it is true, there is almost nothing worse then a resurrected spirit garnishing the rags of the "old man" (the dead mind of the flesh). Acting thus it wouldn't be a stretch to say our lives stink!

I can't judge my brethren in this, I speak from the awareness of my own shortcomings. When I'm walking truly in the Spirit I am acutely aware that in my flesh, my carnal mind and body, there is no person who I am above. I'm also acutely aware that I've literally been SAVED from destruction through no power of my own. This revelation creates a profound sense of adoration for my Saviour, and also a profound Love and concern for those who are still walking in spiritual death. We should know that those "without the camp" in the outer darkness are no different than us in any way save they haven't fallen on their knees and pleaded for salvation.

If we are honest, remembering where we come from and knowing that our lives are not our own, and our ability to live aright comes solely from God, then it is (should be) with tears that we entreat others to come to the Cross of Calvary.