Confused

[Blissman]

It has been argued here that in Christainity those who do not accept Christ as savior and as God will be punish in eternal Hell.

Some things do not make sense to me, because it would seem as if there are contradictions. For one, it also says that anyone who accepts Christ will be saved unless they sin (but they can be forgiven of sin by Christ).

Suppose that you had not accepted Christ, perhaps because you did not know about Christianity, were uncertain or confused, or had rejected Christ at the time. Perhaps you may accept Christ tomorrow or in some future date. Would you be condemned to hell because you did not know, were uncertain, or were mislead (which would be 'corrected' in the future? If God is all knowing, wouldn't He know your future and know that your not accepting Christ would be true for today?

Would, since Jesus had said, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.", mean that if men whom do not know what they are doing to be forgiven because they don't know what they are doing, which would that include a non-Christian's because they, Non Christians not know what they are doing? For that matter, why would, if God is all knowing, need to ask His Son (or why would His Son need to ask His Father) to forgive them? Does/did not God know that they (man) not know what they (or in this case, we), not know what we are doing? Suppose you had rejected God. Is that because you don't know the Truth (and would not reject God had you known the Truth)?
Wherin this does punishment lay for man to comprehend, (if man is seeking the Truth)? Are you to be punished because you had been deceived? If you were mis-lead, but had been seeking to know God, are you guilty of not knowing while you are seeking?

Suppose that you did not accept Christ as God, but did accept His father as God? Is not God, God? Did God, the Father of Christ disappear or become less significant because He had a Son? Did God's Son usurp the significance of his Father? It seems that Christianity is centered on the Son of God, and his father is almost an Oh, BTW. Why is the Old Testament almost rejected.

 

[pmarquette]

It has been argued here that in Christainity those who do not accept Christ as savior and as God will be punish in eternal Hell.
............ Mother Theresa said " to those who believe , no explaination is necessary "
indicating what is written in Isaiah 36 , Revelation 2 & 3 , and within the Gospel , that an understanding of the Holy Writ , goes along with the change of heart , that what we could not see with our earthly eyes , we now see with the eyes of the spirit ... by faith

.......... she also said " to those who do not understand , no explainaiton would be sufficient " , for without eyes to see and ears to hear , what would explain , would be so much stuff and nonsesnse...

The Bible either is or is not [ black or white , no gray ] ;
Jesus is or is not God's only begotton son ;
He is the way the truth the light period , or is not ;
Christians are entirely correct or entirely wrong ...

it is your decision - speak and believe ;
or speak and reject ....
no other choices....

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

It has been argued here that in Christainity those who do not accept Christ as savior and as God will be punish in eternal Hell.

Some things do not make sense to me, because it would seem as if there are contradictions. For one, it also says that anyone who accepts Christ will be saved unless they sin (but they can be forgiven of sin by Christ).

Anyone can come to Christ. And many do. It's the persevereance most people have problems with. Coming to Christ proffers forgiveness of all sins, past, present, and future if we persevere. There is a movement that says, "Once saved, always saved." THis is not scriptural, and if you like I can explain this and how it works-just let me know because you may already be familiar with the movement and its problems.

But once we come to Christ, we are new creations. We have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

However, we can choose not to live according to the Holy Spirit, and continue in a life of sin. If we continue unrepentant, we will eventually fall away. This does not refer to backsliding, which, while a dangerous condition for the unpredictability of its outcome, is not the same as falling away.

We will always have some residual sin, but we are now committed to a lifelong sanctification process of continual repentance.

So, the difference is, is it a sin that no longer characterizes the Christian, or is it a cold-hearted rebellion against the blood of the cross? One happens to all Christians, but the other is a deliberate rejection of the cross.

Suppose that you had not accepted Christ, perhaps because you did not know about Christianity, were uncertain or confused, or had rejected Christ at the time. Perhaps you may accept Christ tomorrow or in some future date. Would you be condemned to hell because you did not know, were uncertain, or were mislead (which would be 'corrected' in the future? If God is all knowing, wouldn't He know your future and know that your not accepting Christ would be true for today?

God is able to bring the person, through His providence, to a point of greater seeking. He can bring people into a person's path, He can put them in the right place at the right time, etc. People often reject Christ before eventually realizing who He is and how true His words are.

This next part I will say as gently as I can: God is sovereign. That's why Jesus says we should make *every* effort to enter the kingdom of God, because once God closes the door, that's it. It's over. And that can happen even before death, if someone has grieved the Spirit too many times.

However. This must never, ever be used as a fatalistic reason not to seek God. There is an enemy-the devil. And he is famous for twisting scripture or taking it out of balance. He will suggest to an individual that God's sovereignty negates His mercy, which it does not. Any inkling to seek God, no matter how weak, comes from God, and if the person acts upon it, God will add to it and strengthen it. So, we must take advantage of every opportunity, while fully embracing God's mercy in faith. All efforts, no matter how small or weak, will be rewarded by God and strengthened.

Would, since Jesus had said, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.", mean that if men whom do not know what they are doing to be forgiven because they don't know what they are doing, which would that include a non-Christian's because they, Non Christians not know what they are doing?

God shows more mercy over sins committed out of ignorance than when people knew what they were doing. Even deliberate sins can still be forgiven if they are repented of under the blood of Christ, but the penalty is likely to be severe, for Christian and nonChristian alike.

For that matter, why would, if God is all knowing, need to ask His Son (or why would His Son need to ask His Father) to forgive them? Does/did not God know that they (man) not know what they (or in this case, we), not know what we are doing? Suppose you had rejected God. Is that because you don't know the Truth (and would not reject God had you known the Truth)?

God knows. Jesus said that out loud for our benefit, so we could see His character and learn a little something about how God thinks. People don't think this way, so a person's natural assumption might be that God deosn't either, and so they might be intimidated if they have sinned and fail to seek God for that reason. Here God is demonstrating His incredible mercy.

Also, God chose to use natural means to His grace. He doesn't need us pray for things, but He chooses to because He wants us involved in His war. His work. Kind of like the way a father can take care of the yard himself. But he has his children help him, because they live in the house and need to be about their father's business, too.

Wherin this does punishment lay for man to comprehend, (if man is seeking the Truth)? Are you to be punished because you had been deceived? If you were mis-lead, but had been seeking to know God, are you guilty of not knowing while you are seeking?

Sometimes we are punished for being deceived, if we were deceived willingly. Many will surround themselves with false teachers who tell them what they want to hear. Look at the Old Testament (OT) prophets. People didn't listen because they didn't like what the prophets told them, so they created their own deceptions.

But if someone is truly seeking God, that can only come from the Lord, and He will see to it in His providence that they get the truth. But they are still responsible for embracing that truth when it comes. He's good-He'll see to it they get what they need. But we still have to pray for it. In the Lord's prayer, Jesus told us to pray, "Give us this day our daily bread." This refers to spiritual food primarily.

Suppose that you did not accept Christ as God, but did accept His father as God? Is not God, God? Did God, the Father of Christ disappear or become less significant because He had a Son? Did God's Son usurp the significance of his Father? It seems that Christianity is centered on the Son of God, and his father is almost an Oh, BTW. Why is the Old Testament almost rejected.

If someone accepts the Father, they will accept the Son as well. Because that is the means God provided and revealed. To reject this provision is to reject the one who provided it.

I have scriptures to back all of these things up, but I don't have time to put it in tonight. I'll try to get the list ready for tomorrow.

Great thread! I'll see what I can get ready for you.

Blessings,
Whitehorse

 

[tcampen]

The Bible either is or is not [ black or white , no gray ] ;
Jesus is or is not God's only begotton son ;
He is the way the truth the light period , or is not ;
Christians are entirely correct or entirely wrong ...

it is your decision - speak and believe ;
or speak and reject ....
no other choices....

These statements might have a ring of truth in them if logical constraints applied ot the supernatural. However, they do not. The bible is NOT infallible. Jesus may be all that is written of him as Mohammed is to Allah, enlightenment and Nirvana is to Buddhists, and the Goddess is to Wiccans. All may be simultaneously true absolutely in a supernatural realm where the very definition of it is to transcend our earthly rules.

With all due respect to the Mother, opening logic's box to support one's faith is really opening Pandora's Box.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Anyone can come to Christ. And many do. It's the persevereance most people have problems with. Coming to Christ proffers forgiveness of all sins, past, present, and future if we persevere.

Matthew 13:18-23

*18*Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19*When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20*But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21*Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22*He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23*But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Ephesians 1:6-7

1:6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

1:7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

But once we come to Christ, we are new creations. We have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

2*Corinthians 5:17

5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

John 14:16-17

14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

14:17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

However, we can choose not to live according to the Holy Spirit, and continue in a life of sin. If we continue unrepentant, we will eventually fall away. This does not refer to backsliding, which, while a dangerous condition for the unpredictability of its outcome, is not the same as falling away.

Romans 6:15-17

15*What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16*Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17*But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which F23 was delivered you.

We will always have some residual sin, but we are now committed to a lifelong sanctification process of continual repentance.

Romans 7:14-20

14*For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15*For that which I do I allow F26 not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16*If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17*Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18*For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19*For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20*Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

1*Thessalonians 5:23 * *

5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, the difference is, is it a sin that no longer characterizes the Christian, or is it a cold-hearted rebellion against the blood of the cross? One happens to all Christians, but the other is a deliberate rejection of the cross.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8

4:7For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

4:8He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

...continuing

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

...the rest...

This next part I will say as gently as I can: God is sovereign. That's why Jesus says we should make *every* effort to enter the kingdom of God, because once God closes the door, that's it. It's over. And that can happen even before death, if someone has grieved the Spirit too many times.

Luke 13:24

13:24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

However. This must never, ever be used as a fatalistic reason not to seek God. There is an enemy-the devil. And he is famous for twisting scripture or taking it out of balance. He will suggest to an individual that God's sovereignty negates His mercy, which it does not. Any inkling to seek God, no matter how weak, comes from God, and if the person acts upon it, God will add to it and strengthen it. So, we must take advantage of every opportunity, while fully embracing God's mercy in faith. All efforts, no matter how small or weak, will be rewarded by God and strengthened.

1*Thessalonians 5-23-24

5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

5:24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Hebrws 11:6

11:6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

God shows more mercy over sins committed out of ignorance than when people knew what they were doing. Even deliberate sins can still be forgiven if they are repented of under the blood of Christ, but the penalty is likely to be severe, for Christian and nonChristian alike.

Hebrews 4:14-5:2*
*
4:14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

4:15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

4:16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

5:1For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

5:2Who can F13 have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

1*Timothy 1 * *

1:12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

1:13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Sometimes we are punished for being deceived, if we were deceived willingly. Many will surround themselves with false teachers who tell them what they want to hear. Look at the Old Testament (OT) prophets. People didn't listen because they didn't like what the prophets told them, so they created their own deceptions.

2*Timothy 4:3-4

4:3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4:4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

But if someone is truly seeking God, that can only come from the Lord, and He will see to it in His providence that they get the truth. But they are still responsible for embracing that truth when it comes. He's good-He'll see to it they get what they need. But we still have to pray for it. In the Lord's prayer, Jesus told us to pray, "Give us this day our daily bread." This refers to spiritual food primarily.

Philippians 2:13

2:13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If someone accepts the Father, they will accept the Son as well. Because that is the means God provided and revealed. To reject this provision is to reject the one who provided it.

John 13:20

13:20Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

I hope this helps!

Blessings,
Whitehorse

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

These statements might have a ring of truth in them if logical constraints applied ot the supernatural. However, they do not. The bible is NOT infallible. Jesus may be all that is written of him as Mohammed is to Allah, enlightenment and Nirvana is to Buddhists, and the Goddess is to Wiccans. All may be simultaneously true absolutely in a supernatural realm where the very definition of it is to transcend our earthly rules.

With all due respect to the Mother, opening logic's box to support one's faith is really opening Pandora's Box.

On what basis do you make the statement that the Bible is not infallible?

 

[Blissman]

Thank you, Whitehorse.
I have another question. It is about something that you had posted. You had said that man can punished if they are ignorant.

But in

1 Timothy 1 says:
13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief

Please explain this.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Thank you, Whitehorse.
I have another question. It is about something that you had posted. You had said that man can punished if they are ignorant.

But in

1 Timothy 1 says:
13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief

Please explain this.

Good question. First of all, there is more than one kind of ignorance. There is the willful kind, and there is the kind that has no malice behind it; it's just wrong but the person doesn't know it. God shows far more mercy to the second kind. But both receive judgment, though.

Here is an example, which is in regards to God's servants. We're supposed to be about our Master's business, but some do His will, and some not. I suggest reading Luke 12 for the entire context, though. God expects a good return on the talents He has given us. So when we're talking about servant's who are not doing what God has ordered them to do, it's like any other military. Those who acted out of willful neglect will be treated more harshly than those who were ignorant but still did something deserving punishment. Even so, the ignorant are judged, but with a small judgment. It's like someone who parks their car in an unauthorized spot but they don't know it. They still get a fine if the policeman walks by.

Luke 12:47-48*

12:47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

12:48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[Lyle]

Suppose that you had not accepted Christ, perhaps because you did not know about Christianity, were uncertain or confused, or had rejected Christ at the time. Perhaps you may accept Christ tomorrow or in some future date. Would you be condemned to hell because you did not know, were uncertain, or were mislead (which would be 'corrected' in the future? If God is all knowing, wouldn't He know your future and know that your not accepting Christ would be true for today?

If you don't know Christ, you're going to hell, period. You sinned and broke God's law

Suppose that you did not accept Christ as God, but did accept His father as God? Is not God, God? Did God, the Father of Christ disappear or become less significant because He had a Son? Did God's Son usurp the significance of his Father? It seems that Christianity is centered on the Son of God, and his father is almost an Oh, BTW. Why is the Old Testament almost rejected.

A major falter people hit today is making Christ just a little below God... A little below misses the whole point and is total error

 

[Lyle]

Oh yeah, Christ is in no way rejected by the Old testiment...

 

[Blissman]

Do you mean that Christ as the messiah is not rejected by the OT? The idea of messiah is not.

 

[Blissman]

Original Sin????? Is there such a thing as original sin? The Lord had killed all people except for Noah and his wife. With that, wasn't any sin that could have been passed down been have eliminated? Didn't He start with a 'clean slate'?

Somehow the idea of killing everyone is replusve to me. Why couldn't he willl that the mind of men was not evil?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Original Sin????? Is there such a thing as original sin? The Lord had killed all people except for Noah and his wife. With that, wasn't any sin that could have been passed down been have eliminated? Didn't He start with a 'clean slate'?

Somehow the idea of killing everyone is replusve to me. Why couldn't he willl that the mind of men was not evil?

Yes-original sin is what happened in the garden that is now in our genetic makeup. You'll notice Jesus had a virgin birth, and thereby was not subject to the transmission of the sin nature.

Noah is a blood descendent of Adam, so this is why he had original sin. And his children were sinful, too. We can see this by what happened after they got off the ark. I don't think the stress of that could be paralelled, getting off and everyone and everything you knew was gone. But the people on earth at that time were extremely sinful. Every kind of wickedness was taking place.

God thinks dofferently than we do. His plans are higher. We'd never know the extent of His mercy without sin. We'd never see the unbelieveable sacrifice He was willing to make to take that from us, and oh how we trample this great gift in the dust sometimes when we sin or don't appreciate what He did for us. Jesus is God-for Him to even step down out of heaven and take on human flesh is a degradation of who He is...yet He did it. WHy? For the spectacular reward of dying for sins He didn't commit. Id' say that's pretty generous. And now He has to be human for the rest of eternity, because if He ever ceased to be human, that would be the end of compensation for our sin.

We'd never know what exists in the human heart without God permitting it. And then we'd never see His goodness.

 

[tcampen]

On what basis do you make the statement that the Bible is not infallible?

First, the claim that any particular written text is without any error also hold the burden of proving such is the case. Just one error would render that claim false. Thus, the entire story of Genesis, and Noah's Flood are not accurate records of events that really happened. These are the most obvious ones, for example.

Second, the "evidence" for infallibility is based on religious and theological foundations. In other words, it is those that start with the premise of infallibility first who seem to keep finding it. Those who have no stake in such things and analyse the Bible as objectively as possible find the bible to be far short of infallibility.

Finally, the bible is the work of humans. Humans are not perfect. The concept that the various authors of the Bible wrote perfectly is purely theological. The Gospels writers are unknown, yet infallibility is imputed to unknown authors? And what about the canonization process? Why do we assume the early church fathers were themselve infalible in choosing which works should be part of the bible and which should not? There is no biblical support that those who compiled the bible up to centuries after the fact were divinely inspired at all.

Just a few points.

 

[tcampen]

Yes-original sin is what happened in the garden that is now in our genetic makeup. You'll notice Jesus had a virgin birth, and thereby was not subject to the transmission of the sin nature.

Wasn't Jesus half Mary's child? Are you saying none of Jesus' genetics came from Mary? Is there any biblical support for this assertion? Wasn't James the brother of Jesus?

Noah is a blood descendent of Adam, so this is why he had original sin. And his children were sinful, too. We can see this by what happened after they got off the ark. I don't think the stress of that could be paralelled, getting off and everyone and everything you knew was gone. But the people on earth at that time were extremely sinful. Every kind of wickedness was taking place.

Sin is spiritual, not genetic. It isn't a physical thing. If it were, then we would someday be able to eliminate such from our genetics. Second, our genetics can be traced back conclusively to our common ancestor with Chimps in the "junk" portion of our DNA. (It has to do with ancient viral tranpositions of our genes which we share with our nearest primate cousins.) So our "genetic imperfections" seem to be part of our DNA make up that far exeeds our being part of the human species.

Maybe you were referring to Adam metaphorically?

 

[tcampen]

Oh yeah, Christ is in no way rejected by the Old testiment...

There are millions of Jews that might disagree with you on that one, just for starters. Certainly, reasonable, informed, and sincere people can disagree on this issue.

 

[Annabel Lee]

If you don't know Christ, you're going to hell, period. You sinned and broke God's law

Who gave you the authority to d@mn people to Hell?

 

[dlamberth]

A major falter people hit today is making Christ just a little below God... A little below misses the whole point and is total error

Just to play the devil's advocate a little, I have to ask, with Christ being "GOD" and all, should we recognize Jesus as having equal responsibility with all of the terrible atrocities God did and condoned and instructed His children to do in the O.T.?

Or is there some magic line of separation, where Jesus really is somehow seperated from God as having equal cause of these things?

..

 

[dlamberth]

If you don't know Christ, you're going to hell, period. You sinned and broke God's law

I have found that the legalistic religionist is the least spiritual of all. When I watch the legalistic religionist, I have find myself wondering, with out spiritual awareness, how close to God can they truly get?


..