Confused

[Kakadu]

Hello, due to the material in the recently closed topic about Islam, I would like to ask 2 questions, one serious...and the other...not so.

1. Hix, and DOF had a little spat, and something had come up about Catholics, Protestants and ‘us’. I guess the us was referring to the Messianic type. So in the realm of Christianity there are the Protestants, Catholics, AND Messianic Jews? This I never heard of before, I have heard of Messianic Jew’s, honestly not knowing much about them, but learning every day. It always bothered me to hear Catholics saying ‘I’m Catholic’, but saying nothing about being a Christian, and even Protestants referring to themselves as Baptists, or Methodists, or whatever else they come up with, and now Messianic Jew’s…are there denominations within the group of Messianic Jew’s? I don’t want to sound like I’m pro one, and con the other…I just feel that I am a follower of Jesus Christ, and I believe in the Bible, and I try to live my life by using that as my ultimate go by in life. Auk I don’t know.

2. Is it often that this forum gets a lot of ‘closed’ topics…I went through 3 randomly and it seems that people get to ‘debating’ and boink…its out.




Oh and on that note…where is there a place to talk to Messianic Jews about there beliefs and ‘debate’ on what they believe versus what I believe so that both of us, or at least me anyway, can get a better understanding of ALL of God’s followers.


Thanks.

-Ryan

 

[iitb]

Basically, non-messianics aren't allowed to debate in this forum. I've closed a few more threads than normal lately because of this, but it isn't usually a major issue.

Since the demise of IDD, there really isn't a place for you to debate MJ theology, but you're more than welcome to ask questions here.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Ryan,

From what you said about your simple faith, and trying to just ollow the bible, I think you would find a great blessing in the Messianic faith. Messianics vary some from one group to another, but the overall common feature is that they are all a return to the very first church which the disciples themsleves were the heads of. It is pretty much Judaism without ormal rabbinical conversion and circumcision, just as the first church. It is a mixture of Gentiles and Jews, and is Torah centered, jst like the first church. In other words the customs doctrines and traditions of the church that developed after Roman Paganism was introduced, are not followed. It is Gods instructions that count.

If you want to speak more in depth beyond what the forum allows, you are welcome to PM me or use the Email link.

Charles

 

[sojeru]

My disagreement with the messianics is that the original faith of the messiah is Orthodox Judaism itself.
"Got Orthodox?"
it is my impression that the Orthodox is the way one will truely understand the "New testament" flawlessly- and that Messiah Yeshuah is the salvation for the Gentiles and gave them power to become "sons of G-D" ( this term means a judge- and a convert is a judge as soon as he converts- thus his status when he converts is at the PAR Excellency of a minor Rabbi)

shalom

 

[The Thadman]

My disagreement with the messianics is that the original faith of the messiah is Orthodox Judaism itself.

This is a rather big point of friction within all of Messianic Judaism. For example, I personally disagree.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

 

[Kakadu]

hmm, sojeru, you have brought up something very intristing to me...we are adopted sons, i just thought of it as such, but not really thinking that it means we are adopted into the Jewish brotheren of being the 'chosen people'.
ill have to do some reasearch on that.
so a messianic's point of veiw would be focus on the OT and the NT will be clearer? Personally, as it stands right now i enjoy the NT more than the OT. I do not believe the OT is void, but rather a tool to see how the followers of Jesus saw things, and to prove the prophecies that were all fulfilled in Jesus.
I had another question, that was does a Messianic Jew have to be a Jew first, but i guess if im seeing Sojeru correctly, it is through adoption to be a 'Jew' that believes in the Savior.

 

[ShirChadash]

Hello Kakadu

Many non-Jew believers also practice Messianic Judaism.

 

[sojeru]

Hi Kakadu,

you said:
so a messianic's point of veiw would be focus on the OT and the NT will be clearer? Personally, as it stands right now i enjoy the NT more than the OT. I do not believe the OT is void, but rather a tool to see how the followers of Jesus saw things, and to prove the prophecies that were all fulfilled in Jesus.

which one has more grandeur, the one that came first (original) or the one that came second (the copy- the one that is the 'like' of the Original)?

We both know that the chicken and the egg has great importance, however, again I must ask which has more grandeur- the chicken or the egg.

Now if there existed no chicken, there would be no egg.
If there existed no "Old testament" there would be no "new testament" as the christians call it.

Now, lets say the egg was created first, who would warm up the egg and keep it at a temperature that it would not cook either, nor that the temperature would drop below making the contents inside the egg useless for life?
There is no mother to give it life.

So in the same, without the "OT" the "NT" is dead and is useless.
However, the "OT" nor does the chicken NEED its offspring- it is something that the parent has made- it produced.

Now should the "OT" only be used in making sure and using it to prove prophecies to those unbelieving Jews?
No, it shouldnt even be used that way at all- for those doing it do not understand what the disciples of the Mesiah, His Majesty King Yeshuah, have been trained in.

To be a Talmid (disciple) one MUST BE TALMUDIZED ( this is the "gospel"- the talmud) and the "NT" is JUST THAT it is a condensed version of the Talmud and has even more authority over the Talmud of our sages because it is its predecessor and was written During the existence of the Beit HaMikdash (the temple).
While the EXHAUSTIVE Mishna was only being compiled into one shortly after the Nazarean codicil's completion.

How will a person have faith if "that which is handed down" (christians use "gospel") is not HEARD (heard??? RING! RING! RING! this here is an example of Rabbinic language written by our dear friend the Rabbi Dr.Luqas. the "gospel" is heard? do not Messianics say that "gospel"/EUANGELIO is Besurah in Hebrew? However, what is there evidence that this is what these great men used? there is none! What they taught was MASORAH- and an example of this kind of work within the Jewish world is the TALMUD.

All a person need to ask a Jew is "what is the basis of your faith" and he will give you Talmud [the "study" for the student in which Talmid in modern hebrew means student]. Ask a christian and he/she will say, " "jesus christ" died, was buried and rose up on the third day to save us."

This is all fine and dandy but what is the difference between the two- the first has an exhaustive lectionary of his faith in the way he should DO his faith that has been "handed down" since sinai- while the other has only a philosophy, a belief but no action associated with it save their spiritual act of speaking.

The second is besurah (lit. news) while the first is MASORAH (that which is handed down) and there was only one Masorah since the time of SInai until today. And Rav Shaul is not ashamed of it.)

 

[P_G]

Hello Kakadu

Many non-Jew believers also practice Messianic Judaism.

Hey Hey Thats me!

I feel so vindicated now!

Love
PG

 

[ShirChadash]

Hey Hey Thats me!

I feel so vindicated now!

*chuckle*

Hey Hey Thats me TOO!!

 

[Kakadu]

sorry, sojeru i didn't really follow much of that... lots of people i guess i should know that i don't.
chicken/egg, OT/NT, i don't think the analogy doesn't really work, but thats cool. I don't know that since the OT came first it means that it has more grandeur, or that the NT is 'like' the OT. the NT is a NEW convenant. Do you buy an old car, or the new one that has all the good stuff in the old one, but is improved in other areas.
i thought i would throw that in for the analogy game
Another question though. Do Messianics see the other fellow believers blaspheming by saying God or Jesus, or Lord. and not G-d? and another thing i never understood, how do you say God if you don't use the O? or can you say it but not type it or write it down? and to say Most High, would you say M-st H-gh? thats another one i don't get.

 

[sojeru]

Hi Kakadu,

This is what I have said in other threads and then I will show you something about this "new covenant"

Me as a Jew can look through the "NT" and see it rich in "RABBINIC LANGUAGE".

To an outsider, yes, it may seem and look like it is saying one thing; however, who can understand the *notes* of a psycologist unless one is a psycologist or is studying to be one (for this person it determines on how far he is in his learning).

Matthew is indeed rich in the writting because this is the only book that had the least amount of change done to it- this writtings is called midrash, and funny an agnostic author agreed to the same.

However, a person who recognizes the specific language of a profession will see it through the small changes to blur out the ink a little.

And with out the training that these men have went through, no one would know what they are speaking about though they may think they know.
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1947405&postcount=17

Anyone who knows how to interpret correctly ( i am not saying that you do not), can trace back to exactly what the writers reffered too, especially when a person is trained in the feild that these writers were trained in.

These people were Jews, and so they wrote as Jews with the teaching and scholarship of Jews. These Nazareans were not ignoramouses as most suggest. they were the creme dela creme.
Nazir has the connotations to be great(est) and seperated...
these men were very well rounded- having knowledge of HaShem by scripture (and every Jewish boy by the age of 10 knew the Torah flawlessly.) (paul, holy liar? thread)


You are correct to say that Messiah Yeshuah did come for the Goyim (heathens).
However, he needed Hachamim to give this word out to the nations.
Their responsibilities were and are to talmudize(disciple) the nations and hand down to them the Torah by mouth (Mishna), since they are given the power to become "sons [judges] of G-D" becuase lets face it- they are not of the stock of Avinu Avraham, nor of his flesh nor of his blood lineage.


However, the original face of the faith of Yeshuah is showing again- and yet, it has always been here with all of our Hachamim (Rabbis) such as Akiva, RaMBaM, and etc.
If you are a goy, then I suggest that you take a close look at the words of Mashiach Yeshuah---everything is there.
Sefer Marqos- Mishna Marqos1:1==> Avot1:1
Sefer Luqas- Gemarah Luqas1:1-4 (expounds on marqos1:1)
Sefer Mattityahu- Midrash
Sefer Yochanan- Brilliance- Zohar (So'od) Kaballah

Sefer Luqas bet- Gemarah
Sefarim Hacham Shaul (paul) - Responsa (contains all levels of Hermeneutics)
Yochanan Aleph,bet,gimel- Zohar
Yochanan book of apocalypse- Zohar

these writtings agree with everything our sages say. I know that you may disagree, and you are allowed to.

We Jews await the Messiah that is to come for US- you do not have to believe "ben Yosef" for he is amoung the gentiles.
Mashiach ben David- to restore Yisrael to splendor
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1884202&postcount=19

thing is, without training, a person will view this in their own form, in their form of philosophy. A person needs be trained in the language (not specifically Hebrew itself) but in the thought.

if the chicken and egg came to no avail I hope this will.
If not, then i will cease trying to convince you and let you be.

However, concerning this "NEW COVENANT" there is no such thing.
If you learn Hebrew now
and read Yermiyahu (Jeremiah) 31:31-34
the New covenant is not reffered too- However, IT DOES indeed say "RENEWAL COVENANT" or "Covenant of Renewal" which is Brit Hadashah.

So, let me totally restate your analogy of the old car.
The old car is old only because of the people that had part ownership on the car.
These people drove it into a ditch and messed it up.
Now the manufacturer who has joint ownership of the car is going to renew this same car- the only added thing he will put to this same car is that HE will be able to control it at all times.
In Hebrew there is no such thing as "OLD LAW" or covenant- it is the same- just one is to renew the covenant.
so would you rather stay with the car as you crashed it which will do you no good; pick a totally different and new car which will completely annul the agreement; or would you want the Manufacturer to do what he says, not press charges against you, and renew the car?

And since the "OLD Testament" as you call it, spoke this first and since you use it for "prophecy" then it must be used correctly in the way the writters meant it. Jeremiah, again spoke of a RENEWAL to the people and covenant, nothing more- less or different.

shalom u'brachot

 

[Kakadu]

However, the original face of the faith of Yeshuah is showing again- and yet, it has always been here with all of our Hachamim (Rabbis) such as Akiva, RaMBaM, and etc.
If you are a goy, then I suggest that you take a close look at the words of Mashiach Yeshuah---everything is there.
Sefer Marqos- Mishna Marqos1:1==> Avot1:1
Sefer Luqas- Gemarah Luqas1:1-4 (expounds on marqos1:1)
Sefer Mattityahu- Midrash
Sefer Yochanan- Brilliance- Zohar (So'od) Kaballah

Sefer Luqas bet- Gemarah
Sefarim Hacham Shaul (paul) - Responsa (contains all levels of Hermeneutics)
Yochanan Aleph,bet,gimel- Zohar
Yochanan book of apocalypse- Zohar

This whole section i do not understand...are these books in the Word? Could you say those books in english? marqous i think might be mark, and luqas is probably luke?
You have given me much to think on, i don't think we are much diffrent in our train in thought, but you have given me more of a reason to take a closer look at the original testament
ill let you know what i think after some searching.

 

[simchat_torah]

Kakadu...

I know what every one of those words mean, and yet I am confused myself...

I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[Hix]

@_@ Dont worry Kakadu, it went waaaaaaay over my head too.

 

[ShirChadash]

 

[INOrder]

It is indeed wonderful and new the sayings of Sojeru.

I am very intrested into the insight that he has about this "talmudic" New testament.
this has got my attention.

I guess me as a Jew should consider looking into it as he does.

Sojeru, what is your source of this knowledge?
I understand exactly what you are saying, i just wonder if it holds up to your claims.
thank you

bye