Confused about healing

[MikeBigg]

I must admit after being an usher for Kathryn Kuhlman, I was a witness to the demonstation of the power of God and the wind of the Spirit of God saturated those auditoriums. Oh how I miss her and the good she was allowed to perform on so many people's lives.

I would love to have seen Miss Kuhlman minister. There are a few videos on you tube which show her ministering, but I'd love to have been in a meeting.

I know of a guy here in England who says he was in one of her meetings, called to the stage and she touched him lightly on the cheek with one finger. He fell to the ground and was "out" for ages.

There are some people around who are not "on the make", but have laid down their lives and see dramatic healings. One that comes to mind is Heidi Baker and her work in Mozambique. Another is Randy Clark. I am impressed by his pastor's heart and a clear love for people. Another thing that takes him out of the word-of-faith-get-rich evangelists is he is, I have been told, on a salary. When they have a collection in their meetings it doesn't not affect how much he earns and usually goes to a project they are working on.

All that said, my ex-wife did get healed from Fibroids in a Benny Hinn meeting. They just disappeared. God is good

 

[MikeBigg]

Oscarr,

I have read quite a few of your posts and broadly agree with everything. I love that someone is writing this stuff in plain English. Hopefully we'll see more people healed as a result - God paid a high price for people to be healed.

I wanted to raise this point that you make:

Not true. When a person is born again, he is a new creature. The generation goes back only to Christ then. All previous generations and their effects cease at the moment a person accepts Christ. Jesus took all the curses upon Himself and the moment we are born again, we are set free from all curses, including generational ones. Anything less is degrading the born again experience.

I do wonder how true this is in the real world. I have observed, then had another person tell me they'd observed similar things, that family involvement in Freemasonry has been behind eating disorders. Once the person is set free from the masonic influence, the eating disorder goes. This happened with my ex-wife, a woman I prayed for during a church meeting and another known to me. All born-again Christian women.

I know we should base our theology on our experience, but this is too strong for me to ignore.

Kind regards,

Mike

 

[Tee_w]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]I fundamentally disagree with your statement. [/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]We should base our theology on the Word of God and if our experience lines up with the Word we thank God for it. If our experience does not line up with the Word of God then it is our experience that is wrong.

Blessings,
Tee.
[/FONT]

 

[MikeBigg]

Ooops.

That was a typo - it should have read "shouldn't".

Thank you for your correction.

Where our experience doesn't match up with the Bible, it could be that our understanding is wrong.

Blessings,

Mike

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr,

I have read quite a few of your posts and broadly agree with everything. I love that someone is writing this stuff in plain English. Hopefully we'll see more people healed as a result - God paid a high price for people to be healed.

I wanted to raise this point that you make:



I do wonder how true this is in the real world. I have observed, then had another person tell me they'd observed similar things, that family involvement in Freemasonry has been behind eating disorders. Once the person is set free from the masonic influence, the eating disorder goes. This happened with my ex-wife, a woman I prayed for during a church meeting and another known to me. All born-again Christian women.

I know we should base our theology on our experience, but this is too strong for me to ignore.

Kind regards,

Mike

I think that people can be influenced by their environment. If a born again person remains in a demon-influence environment, this can impact on the person. Rather than being a generation curse, it can be the attacks and oppression of the demons that are influencing the environment. Once a person leaves the environment, there is a greater freedom in the Spirit.

My mother was into the occult, so that every time I went home, I felt under attack. I definitely was not as free in the Spirit as I was when I was in my own home in another city.

When a person receives healing, and then goes back into an environment where there is strong unbelief, the person's faith can be weakened and this may open him or her up to a spirit of infirmity again. I have heard testimonies of people losing their healing long-term when they have gone back into atmospheres of unbelief.

This is why we should choose whom we fellowship with, and ensure that we are surrounding ourselves with strong Christians who love the Lord and have strong faith.

I can see your point about basing our theology on our experience rather than on theoretical ideas. There are dangers with this because sometimes our experience does not line up with God's Word. Look at the ministry of healing. Many people do not expect God to heal supernaturally, because their experience does not include this. Their experience is based on their belief in the effectiveness of the medical profession to cure sickness, and when confronted with a person with a terminal disease which the medical profession has given up on, they also give that person up. They often pray, "If it be Thy will..." because they cannot have any more faith than that.

What we need to do is to elevate our experience to the Book of Acts and make the Scripture our standard which our experience should link with. I have worked on this by buying every book I can get my hands on about healing and spiritual warfare, so that I am teaching my mind to think in terms of the the ministry of Jesus and the experiences of the Apostles in the Book of Acts. This strengthens my faith, and teaches me the right way of approaching the ministry of healing that puts God more into the picture.

Of course, it doesn't give me an anointing for healing, because Jesus is the only anointed healer, but it makes me work more closely with Him and have a stronger faith that the Holy Spirit will work in response to my ministry to sick people.

 

[AussieVan]

I have seen mixed and varied results after traditional prayer when someone or myself has been sick. There seem to be some incredible principles that have been lost when it comes to understanding Biblical healing. I heard some teachings from JGLM (Curry Blake ministry) and it made a lot of sense. These more "aggresive" healing methods seem to get better results.

 

[HisW0rd]

Faith without works is dead. If you believe the Lord will heal you and take care of your body, He will heal you. We can't ask the Lord to heal us from an STD but still fornicate. We can't ask the Lord to heal us from diabetes but still eat cake and junk. There is a balance. Sometimes it is as simple as having faith and other times we need to do our part because believing only goes so far.

When I had a mini heart attack, I asked the Lord to heal me but He told me I had to start loving myself and taking care of myself. He healed me no just physically but emotionally and mentally.

One lady the Lord asked me to lay hands on her; she didn’t receive her healing because she didn’t believe. Throughout my experience in healing, when they believed they were healed, when they believed but required to do some work to receive their healing they were healed.

 

[oriel]

I have found true healing to be a process, the more deeper our relationship is with God the more deeper healing we receive. Everything that pertains to healing stems through and from our relationship with God, faith comes from God and increased faith comes from remaining in the journey with God.

There are people that are gifted to heal but no matter the healing we will all die, to experience deep, inner healing, peace and joy we need to abide in the Messiah. Everything we go through in this life is just for the simple purpose of causing us to learn to abide in Him. True healing costs our guts and blood, it is a very painful process of dying to self and living in Him, but the consequence of it is the promise of fullness of life and peace that surpasses all understanding that is spoken of in and by the Word.

As someone from a scientific background God has been teaching me that healing is about balance, we are physical, interspiritual and spiritual creatures we cannot escape this reality, as a consequence if we want full an deep healing all aspects of our person need to be in alignment with each other and in alignment with God. As I mentioned earlier this is not a simple quick prayer, laying on hands thing but a heartfelt prayer is often the catalyst to help us find our true place of healing.

If you are worried or confused just take all of it straight to the feet of the Messiah, ask Him to reveal His healing heart to you. When I was in a very bad place and praying for death I cried out to Him and He came and visited me and spoke a word to me that put me on the right path to healing. i pray that this will also be the same for you.

In Messiah Yeshua I pray.

 

[Willie T]

A friend of mine, the head of our churches in Canada has this to say about where our power and authorization come from for healing.

When I was younger, I was quite taken with a cartoon advertisement that used to appear regularly in various magazines. The purpose was to highlight how the Charles Atlas exercise program could change your life. Each cartoon strip followed the same script. It always began with a skinny young man (that I always identified with) that miraculously had the most beautiful girlfriend. Often he would make the same grievous mistake: He would take her to the beach. (“No, don’t do it!” I would caution – he never listened.) Invariably, they would be confronted by a buff, powerful man (on steroids?), who would kick sand in the young man’s face and humiliate him in front of his girlfriend. Discouraged, he would walk away, only to discover the magazine ad.

Immediately he would send away for this extraordinary secret program and, within minutes of receiving it and putting it into practice, he would be transformed into the ultimate specimen of macho manhood. With new confidence, he would head for the beach and impress the girl by asserting his newfound power. (“She’s bad news,” I warned, but he still never listened.)

This is a classic example of power over power. Often we approach our kingdom commission just that way, looking for the magic program that will transform us into “men and women of power”, who will be able to overcome our evil opponents single-handedly. How could this story be changed to illustrate the true nature of our commission, that of ambassadorial authority?

I suppose the story might play out much the same way until the young man wanders despondently away from the beach.

This time, however, he doesn’t encounter a magazine advertisement; he runs into an old friend – Arnold Schwarenegger. As he pours out his heart to Arnie, his friend says, “Let’s go back and right this wrong!” Excitedly, our young friend returns, finds the beach bully, and puffing up his chest, announces, “You’re outta here!” With a frightening stare, the man forgets all about the beautiful girl and literally races for safety. Who is he staring at? At first it might appear that he is looking at our new hero. In reality, he is looking just past him to the one riding shotgun off his right shoulder – Arnold!. “Hasta la vista, baby!” he says. This is authority over power. Our man hasn’t gained a pound or grown an inch. He has, however, gained authorization from a superior power that has agreed to “back his act”.

This kind of support can be intoxicating. I can imagine our young man becoming so zealous that he decides to rid the beach of every undesirable. This could work well… until Arnold breaks for lunch or decides that the mission has now exceeded what he originally “authorized”. So it is with our kingdom mission. Our success is commensurate to the authority that backs us and that backing is totally dependent on our obedience. When we are simply walking out what we have been commissioned to do, we can expect God’s full support

 

[If Not For Grace]

Jesus and the disciples had a "get in line" approach to healing. There were no requirements from the receipent other than to say they wanted to be healed and even that was not done in every case.

I too wonder why we give heed to the "great commission" of "go ye" and yet we are also told in Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

If you believe the Lord will heal you and take care of your body, He will heal you

What about Lane Goodwin? Many prayed, the family believed-died of cancer. This was not the way it was in Jesus day. Even Belief was not required. The disciples came upon a man took pity and HEALED him. What of the promise where 2 or more are gathered, ask what you will? Why are these things not working today? Why are our people "with the gift" of healing not in every hospital? Where are the healing lines of today is Benny Hinn it? Lazarus did not asked to be "raised" his family demonstrated a lack of faith...did not stop Jesus...

What differes today? I am struggling to understand..Please help. What is it we are doing wrong?

 

[Willie T]

Oscar,

You sound like you have the same DNA and "stuff" I enjoy.

 

[MikeBigg]

Jesus and the disciples had a "get in line" approach to healing. There were no requirements from the receipent other than to say they wanted to be healed and even that was not done in every case.

I too wonder why we give heed to the "great commission" of "go ye" and yet we are also told in Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

Its the Great Commission that causes the commands given by Jesus to the 12 and then the 72 to apply to us. Matt 28:28 says "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you" or something similar.

What about Lane Goodwin? Many prayed, the family believed-died of cancer. This was not the way it was in Jesus day. Even Belief was not required. The disciples came upon a man took pity and HEALED him. What of the promise where 2 or more are gathered, ask what you will? Why are these things not working today? Why are our people "with the gift" of healing not in every hospital? Where are the healing lines of today is Benny Hinn it? Lazarus did not asked to be "raised" his family demonstrated a lack of faith...did not stop Jesus... What differes today? I am struggling to understand..Please help. What is it we are doing wrong?

In our church we have lost some to cancer. It is heart-breaking to watch.

I think there are many reasons why we are not seeing healing as we should. Here are a few of the top of my head:

1) We don't pray right. Jesus' example was to command the sicknesses. I don't think there is anywhere where Jesus healed a sick person by asking the the Father to do it. Yet we have prayer meetings where we implore God to heal, but never do the commanding prayers that Jesus did.

2) We change our theology based on our experiences. If we don't see people healed, how easy is it to make excuses and end up with the complete cesasionist theology which says God doesn't heal today. As we don't believe God heals, we don't even pray for it any more.

3) I think we look to super-stars with the healing gifts. I think we should all be going out and having a go at healing. The Great Commission was for all of us after all. If we were to do this, we'd all grow in faith and it would be a circular faith building cycle. I think its in Act 5 when it says (paraphrased) "All the apostles performed signs and wonders ... people brought their sick and all were healed." I think this should be the model for the church - everyone performing signs and wonders ending up with all the sick who are brought being healed.

You may be surprised how much healing is going on today ... here's some info that I know about:

1) Bethel Church in Redding, CA. They have spent years contending for cancer. I heard a statistic that they are now seeing something like 70% of cancer patients who come to them get healed.

2) Heidi Baker in Mozambique. I heard her say that they are seeing 100% deaf mozambiqueians healed and 70% blind healed.

3) Randy Clark and other are seeing implanted metal disappear as God heals joints.

4) in the UK and elsewhere there is the Healing on the Streets initiative which is seeing many people out offering to pray for healing and seeing non-Christians healed.

Check out this video of Mark Marx, the man behind the HotS initiative demonstrating some healing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtoosvGIqYs


5) "Power evangelism" taking the Gospel and healing to the streets is happening all over. Search on youtube for Todd White, Tom Fischer and Pete Cabrera Jr to name, but three.

I hope this helps answer some questions.

Kind regards,

Mike

 

[If Not For Grace]

1) We don't pray right. Jesus' example was to command the sicknesses. I don't think there is anywhere where Jesus healed a sick person by asking the the Father to do it. Yet we have prayer meetings where we implore God to heal, but never do the commanding prayers that Jesus did

This is the only one that makes sense to me.

70% is not a healing rate-God would be faithful 100%, if they were "doing it right" would He not?

What about the promise of "where 2 or more are gathered, let them ask whatever they will" ..Does this not apply to healing? or do we defaul back to #1 having already been given the example?

 

[MikeBigg]

This is the only one that makes sense to me.

70% is not a healing rate-God would be faithful 100%, if they were "doing it right" would He not?

What about the promise of "where 2 or more are gathered, let them ask whatever they will" ..Does this not apply to healing? or do we defaul back to #1 having already been given the example?

I take your point, but - the people in the 70% are pleased it is happening at that rate.

Jesus didn't heal much in His home town. The disciples found they couldn't cast out a demon, didn't Timothy have a stomach condition? So there is Bible precedent for not everyone getting healed.

I'm of the opinion that it is always God's will to heal, but God doesn't always get His will - if He did, why would Jesus have told us to pray "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" ?

We are flawed people in a fallen world. We have fears and insecurities and a enemy who says things to us to try to discourage us. In the light of this, 70% of cancer is pretty good.

I'd also make the point that they didn't start at 70% They have been growing to this as their faith develops.

I remember hearing someone talk of Heidi and Rolland Baker and their work in Mozambique - where they have seen hundreds of people raised from the dead by the indigenous pastors in the churches they have planted - they have to be careful who they bring in to speak to their pastors as their pastors have never heard anyone say that God doesn't raise the dead today. Their mind has not been influenced by the negative confessions of people who don't see God heal and therefore have come up with a theology that says that healing is not for today.

Mike

 

[If Not For Grace]

but God doesn't always get His will - if He did, why would Jesus have told us to pray "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven

I can not say w/certainty but I would expect that at least one reaons is because with the enemey being cast out of heaven, there is a lot less temptation to do otherwise. Also the Angels if I understand it corrrectly are different beings than us and are perphaps better at serving or receiving instrution than us.

No disrepect but my dog is more readily complaint with my wishes than than my husband even though my husband obviously outranks the dog in my heart right?

i can recall no account of failed healing of infirmitiy and certainly none by Jesus documented in the Bible. I may can buy that the diciples got "better with practice" idea, but not Jesus nor can I hold the faith level of the receipent as issue.
Lazarus did not asked to be raised from the dead and Martha and Mary demonstrated a lack of faith "IF you had been here" "He already stinks" and yet Jesus did it anyway. There is more than one account where people brought "people" to be healed and the statment "He healed them all" occurs more than once.

To Wit-today are we not praying to Jesus and is HE not the one who heals? This is why I was asking about the "two gathered together" ask what they will promise. Does it NOT apply to healing or am I reading it wrong? This is also why I took issue w/70% which is not happening in the US today and I know many groups who pray for healing and many more families. It is also the reason I brought up Lane Goodwin, there are accounts of more prayer for this boy via media coverage than heretofore known in history and yet he died of cancer. i don't stumble over a lot, but this issue is getting to me a bit.

PS; In case others respond-- If you don't know just say that-i can accept that, but I would welcome anyone's thoughts on the matter.

 

[MikeBigg]

i can recall no account of failed healing of infirmitiy and certainly none by Jesus documented in the Bible. I may can buy that the diciples got "better with practice" idea, but not Jesus nor can I hold the faith level of the receipent as issue.
Lazarus did not asked to be raised from the dead and Martha and Mary demonstrated a lack of faith "IF you had been here" "He already stinks" and yet Jesus did it anyway. There is more than one account where people brought "people" to be healed and the statment "He healed them all" occurs more than once.

I maybe wouldn't use the phrase "failed healing", but take a look at this passage in Mark 6:

Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples. 2 When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed.

“Where did this man get these things?” they asked. “What’s this wisdom that has been given him? What are these remarkable miracles he is performing? 3 Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?” And they took offence at him.

4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.” 5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 He was amazed at their lack of faith.

To Wit-today are we not praying to Jesus and is HE not the one who heals? This is why I was asking about the "two gathered together" ask what they will promise. Does it NOT apply to healing or am I reading it wrong?

This is also why I took issue w/70% which is not happening in the US today and I know many groups who pray for healing and many more families. It is also the reason I brought up Lane Goodwin, there are accounts of more prayer for this boy via media coverage than heretofore known in history and yet he died of cancer. i don't stumble over a lot, but this issue is getting to me a bit.

It is Jesus we pray to and Jesus who heals - you have that right.

I don't think anyone has the answer to the other parts of your posts. We lost a woman to cancer in our church last year. She was prayed for and prayed for, but she still died. A few months later the church was having a discussion forum about difficult questions and he son-in-law, my friend asked the question: "Does God ever answer prayer?" That's how disillusioned he'd become over it.

Randy Clark, healing evangelist has 2 related messages he gives. The first is titled "The thrill of victory", in which he talks about some of the amazing healings he has seen. The second is called: "The agony of defeat" in which he talks about the people who have not been healed. The conclusion he comes to is that "we", and in the context of his messages that is people involved in healing ministry, "we" need to be able to accept that "I don't know" is a valid answer to the question "why didn't so and so get healed".

MP3s of those messages are available from the Global Awakening website should you want to take a listen.

Blessings,

Mike