Conflicting messages between God and Jesus?

PeaceJoyLove · Jan 29, 2018

curious mike said:
Ok guys, I've now read each and every post, thanks for all the insights. Let's switch gears a little please and let me ask you guys for your opinions on this issue. What had sparked this thread was last week I was having a discussion with a friend on my living environment and the many regualr evils which surrounds me. I had told the friend:

"I am trying to encourage the people here to stop sinning, for in this household and environment sinning is acceptable by some with responses I get being like "everybody sins". I am tired of telling people about their sins and getting into arguments over this. I feel like if I don't stop discussing God with them it's going to continue hampering my spiritual walk as it will only keep me frustrated and angry."

To this the friend said:
actually pointing out the sins of people is not the ideal way to minister to people....in fact ...scripture shows us different accounts were Jesus ministered with mercy....compassion.....to those that were in darkness....such as the woman caught in adultery....but even then after he delivered her from death ...as the law required her to be stoned to death....then be added sin no more.
More than anything its thru our example...our demonstration walking out the love of God toward others rather than making them feel guilty or shamed.
In fact Jesus had issue with those that claimed to be followers of his.....he would often ask questions to see where their true committment was......to see how if they truly trusted Him or other things."

I replied with "Of course we all know Jesus's message about love and forgiveness BUT even he reprimanded and got angry at people who were sinning when he had had enough and pointed out their sins, needless to say about God himself too."

To which the friend's reply was "Yes but His anger was primarily directed to the religious people/leaders...As mentioned Jesus mainly got angry at the hypocracy of the religious leaders, not individual people."

My thinking is Dreadnought is dead-on correct If you are in intense pain, you will be trying to resolve that. You'll think about forgiveness later.

If one is "realistic" that is. So my question you guys is, if I don't make the people around me aware of their lies, deceit, hypocrisy, racism, obscenities and debauchery, how will I ever get them to stop? I am not being smug or self-righteous, it's that these things mentioned above is directly affecting me. It's constant, never ending and I don't know how else to deal with these guys. Do I leave them alone and not mention anything when they are doing what's mentioned and do I keep being on the receiving end and do nothing just so I can falsely act like nothing is bothering me and respond in kindness?

Your friend is wise...
Just as it is for us, we can not/do not 'save' our self. It is the work of God. The Holy Spirit knows how to convict...no one can come unless HE draws them.

Just as the scripture about the believing wife with an unbelieving husband, "they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives..." by honouring them. So it is with others. Our actions speak louder than words. To walk in love (as HE loved us). These of whom you speak, they know not what they do...hold nothing against them.

To condemn and judge is not what we are called to do...but to love. By the spirit that dwells within us, not by our own thoughts...

curious mike · Jan 29, 2018

PeaceJoyLove said:
To condemn and judge is not what we are called to do...but to love. By the spirit that dwells within us, not by our own thoughts...

Right and I agree with that but when you are on the receiving end of this constantly, every human has a boiling point. It's very easy to say walk in love and forgive and all that when you are not walking in the shoes of someone as I. Remember Jesus himself had reprimanded and scolded so if we are to do as Jesus did then......

Randy777 · Jan 29, 2018

curious mike said:
Hey guys, I can use some clarity on this please. Far as I am understanding God said "an eye for an eye" while Jesus said "turn the other cheek". God said to avoid strife or not associate yourself with anyone who brings strife into your life while Jesus said to always love and forgive. What gives??

The difference is in the covenants. The law vs grace. God is the same and He didn't find fault with the law but with the people. The law had punishments per transgression and was without mercy. It was given through angels and was binding. As is written the law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus.
The law required the women caught in adultery to be stoned. Jesus forgave her.
According to Paul the law was given so people can know what is sin. According to Jesus the leadership added many customs on top of that law and strained out a gnat in enforcing such laws when it came to others but they themselves swallowed a camel. He was angry with that generation.
No one Loves more than the Father and He is the one who sent Jesus and Jesus stated He spoke all the words the Father commanded Him to state. The result is they plotted to kill Jesus and with the help of evil men carried out that act. But that was with Gods foreknowledge for by Jesus's blood He purchased people for God from all nations.

Jesus=>This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

PeaceJoyLove · Jan 29, 2018

curious mike said:
Right and I agree with that but when you are on the receiving end of this constantly, every human has a boiling point. It's very easy to say walk in love and forgive and all that when you are not walking in the shoes of someone as I. Remember Jesus himself had reprimanded and scolded so if we are to do as Jesus did then......

I speak as a wife who once had an unbelieving husband. When I learned to walk in love, without saying a word, it brought peace to our household. It did not compromise my walking in the truth. It did change the atmosphere and brought blessing to our home. (My husband is now a believer...)

When we point out what we perceive lacking in others by judging and condemning, we cause division and strife...the complete opposite to what the fruits of the spirit. The Beatitudes...'Blessed is the peacemaker..." it is not within the power of man, but by the spirit...ask God...

As your friend pointed out, it was the religious establishment of Jesus time that He scolded and reprimanded. That establishment actually condemned and judged Jesus as reprobate because He hung out and ate with sinners...the very ones HE said "neither do I condemn thee"...

I ask this for you to ponder (no way an accusation)...do you think God does not know how to draw these to Himself in His own timing and way?

You have spoken to these in your household. They did not receive what you said...leave to God. HE knows what to do. Remember Jesus with Peter, when He knew that Peter would betray Him...He did not preach a sermon or condemn, but told him, "Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: I have prayed for you..."

DominicBaptiste · Jan 29, 2018

curious mike said:
Hey guys, I can use some clarity on this please. Far as I am understanding God said "an eye for an eye" while Jesus said "turn the other cheek". God said to avoid strife or not associate yourself with anyone who brings strife into your life while Jesus said to always love and forgive. What gives??

The Old Testament way would have been if someone attacked you, to attack them back. The New Testament way is to not be afraid of someone who is attacking you and to assert yourself, hold your position, defend yourself, but don't attack the person back just to retaliate. It's a subtle difference. I learned the concept also once in a sales class in college, but it was called "assertion theory" there. It means that you have a right to assert your position without crossing over the boundaries of the other person. So, if you smacked me in the face, I should not shy away from you because you are doing evil, but at the same time, I shouldn't smack you back but rather stop you from smacking me in a way that wouldn't be deemed retaliation. There are probably some people who interpret that verse as saying to let someone beat you up, but I learned a while ago that that doesn't work because you'll just end up a beaten up person, and I "choose" to not crucify myself to anyone - Jesus died already for that. I'm very serious about it too. When they come this time, they'll hit a wall.

Matthew 5:38-39 Darby Translation (DARBY)
38 Ye have heard that it has been said, Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.

39 But *I* say unto you, not to resist evil; but whoever shall strike thee on thy right cheek, turn to him also the other;

Ken Rank · Jan 29, 2018

curious mike said:
Hey guys, I can use some clarity on this please. Far as I am understanding God said "an eye for an eye" while Jesus said "turn the other cheek". God said to avoid strife or not associate yourself with anyone who brings strife into your life while Jesus said to always love and forgive. What gives??

One of the major things to remember, is that when God gave the Law to Israel, and the judgments, punishments, and ability to prosecute were included, it was for when Israel was acting as an independent nation. When their leaders, kings, enforced the laws of God. But when one lives under secular law, like we do today AND like the Jews did in the first century, there is no authority to enact a punishment without breaking the laws of those who are in authority over you at that time. The Jews simply lacked authority to take "an eye for an eye" for example... though they could take that person before the Roman authorities and ask them to address it... as they did Jesus himself.

I think, personally, the fact that there was no authority for the Jew to enact any kind of punishment outside of preventing one from entering a synagogue gave messiah a great platform to teach mercy from. His point doesn't negate a punishment if we ever lived within the realm of God's law being the rule of law we follow as a nation.... it simply gave him a platform to teach a greater ideal.

curious mike · Jan 29, 2018

PeaceJoyLove said:
I speak as a wife who once had an unbelieving husband. When I learned to walk in love, without saying a word, it brought peace to our household. It did not compromise my walking in the truth. It did change the atmosphere and brought blessing to our home. (My husband is now a believer...)

I am truly glad that situation worked well for you but lots of battered housewives would testify differently unfortunately.

I ask this for you to ponder (no way an accusation)...do you think God does not know how to draw these to Himself in His own timing and way?

Needless to say but my issue is dealing with them on a regular basis and being directly affected by their actions. It was my kindness which got me in this situation in the first place as they have consistently been taking advantage of my kindness. My point to all of this is quite simply that the walking in love and acts of kindness is what's doing the damage, I can't put this any other way. Thank you for your prayers though!

dreadnought · Jan 29, 2018

Phoebe Ann said:
Matthew 6
14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 18
32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Ephesians 4
32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Yes, when a person repents of their sin, we need to forgive them.

Rescued One · Jan 30, 2018

dreadnought said:
Yes, when a person repents of their sin, we need to forgive them.

We need to forgive them anyway.

Rescued One · Jan 30, 2018

curious mike said:
I am truly glad that situation worked well for you but lots of battered housewives would testify differently unfortunately.

Needless to say but my issue is dealing with them on a regular basis and being directly affected by their actions. It was my kindness which got me in this situation in the first place as they have consistently been taking advantage of my kindness. My point to all of this is quite simply that the walking in love and acts of kindness is what's doing the damage, I can't put this any other way. Thank you for your prayers though!

I think forgiveness doesn't mean that you stay in the situation with the volatile person. We have to learn how to remove ourselves from the abuse.

curious mike · Jan 30, 2018

Phoebe Ann said:
I think forgiveness doesn't mean that you stay in the situation with the volatile person. We have to learn how to remove ourselves from the abuse.

Well put, Amen to that! Far as I know God gives us the right to avoid strife and to avoid people who brings strife into our lives, here's a multitude of scriptures on it:

25 Important Bible Verses About Strife

PeaceJoyLove · Jan 30, 2018

curious mike said:
I am truly glad that situation worked well for you but lots of battered housewives would testify differently unfortunately.

Needless to say but my issue is dealing with them on a regular basis and being directly affected by their actions. It was my kindness which got me in this situation in the first place as they have consistently been taking advantage of my kindness. My point to all of this is quite simply that the walking in love and acts of kindness is what's doing the damage, I can't put this any other way. Thank you for your prayers though!

And I don't disagree with you from a certain place of viewing it.

There is nothing wrong with removing yourself from the situation...like shaking the dust off your feet.

When other's actions a/effect us, we are drinking/eating that which is without, when the truth is inward - the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Peace is sown in them who make peace. We reap what we sow...something that is sown reaps a harvest of what was sown. The word of God is a seed that grows into a tree of life (inwardly) with peace that passeth all understanding of a man (who looks outwardly perceiving with the five senses)...

Inward truth of self...It is not found or bound by conforming to something outside of you. When what we perceive/think to be the truth is imposed on another, it breeds this division in the one who would divide what scripture has said that God fills all in all and there is but One Father of us all...One spirit.

Jesus was led to slaughter without saying a word...To 'see' like HE does, from where He is...HE told us "the Kingdom is within you" ... If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, My servant will be as well. If anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Perception is everything...just as it was for Adam and the woman's reasoning to eat of it...to take thought is to have already eaten of it...

Petros2015 · Jan 30, 2018

curious mike said:
Hey guys, I can use some clarity on this please. Far as I am understanding God said "an eye for an eye" while Jesus said "turn the other cheek". God said to avoid strife or not associate yourself with anyone who brings strife into your life while Jesus said to always love and forgive. What gives??

The Law (the old law), eye for eye, tooth for tooth, was but the Shadow of something.

Christ was the Body of that Something, it's fullfillment in Love, Truth and Spirit

Hebrews 10:1

The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship

God is unchanged, but we see him closer now, we see the reality in Christ, not the shadow, not something fuzzy in the distance and separation. The Law was the shadow of Christ.

John 14:6-7

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

dreadnought · Jan 30, 2018

Phoebe Ann said:
We need to forgive them anyway.

After they stop kicking you in the shin.

Blade · Feb 1, 2018

dreadnought said:
If someone kicks you in the shin every day, all you'll be thinking about is how to get him to stop kicking you in the shin.

Who was Jesus? Where did He come from? Now how many people kept keep kicking at his door and kicking Him and hurting killing those He loves? So this GOD .. a GOD left heaven and the punishment that was for us.. He took it all and forgave. Those that put Him on that tree.. forgive them Father they dont know what they do.

It is a road less traveled.. I will say. It seems it so narrow you can get hurt just walking it. There are countless stories of our brothers and sisters that have done just what you question. Taken beating after beating.. and the one beating them.. found Christ. Its not my 1st choice on what to do lol.. done my WRONG share of that kind of stuff.

There is a time for righteous judgment. You will ALWAYS know when.. if you let the sweet sweet Holy Spirit lead you. How many stories have I heard or you where someone was going after this woman in a dark street.. stood face to face with her ..they said "where did those two big guys come from?" And runs. Or where someone trys to shoot this preacher and no matter how hard he tried.. not one shot hit them. its endless. Its how we WALK. One must believe it ALL..do it ALL..love all forgive all mercy grace and let HIM lead and we die.

Blade · Feb 1, 2018

curious mike said:
Hey guys, I can use some clarity on this please. Far as I am understanding God said "an eye for an eye" while Jesus said "turn the other cheek". God said to avoid strife or not associate yourself with anyone who brings strife into your life while Jesus said to always love and forgive. What gives??

Eye for an eye. In each case how was it used? Was it to be use .. hurt me I hurt you kind of thing? I think if we read above and below we find the LAW. And some in charge as in like judges carrying out this law.

God has never changed. He fulfilled the law. He didnt make it easier but raised the bar. Eye for an eye is easy.. turning the other cheek...yeah not so easy lol.. or where you could look at that woman/man and lust.. now.. you just think at them you did sin. And they way it is now.. is NOT the way it was then. Do you believe they had what we have written in us? NO they did not.

dreadnought · Feb 1, 2018

Blade said:
Who was Jesus? Where did He come from? Now how many people kept keep kicking at his door and kicking Him and hurting killing those He loves? So this GOD .. a GOD left heaven and the punishment that was for us.. He took it all and forgave. Those that put Him on that tree.. forgive them Father they dont know what they do.

It is a road less traveled.. I will say. It seems it so narrow you can get hurt just walking it. There are countless stories of our brothers and sisters that have done just what you question. Taken beating after beating.. and the one beating them.. found Christ. Its not my 1st choice on what to do lol.. done my WRONG share of that kind of stuff.

There is a time for righteous judgment. You will ALWAYS know when.. if you let the sweet sweet Holy Spirit lead you. How many stories have I heard or you where someone was going after this woman in a dark street.. stood face to face with her ..they said "where did those two big guys come from?" And runs. Or where someone trys to shoot this preacher and no matter how hard he tried.. not one shot hit them. its endless. Its how we WALK. One must believe it ALL..do it ALL..love all forgive all mercy grace and let HIM lead and we die.

I believe Jesus was God in flesh.

Andrew Jeremiah · Feb 3, 2018

curious mike said:
Hey guys, I can use some clarity on this please. Far as I am understanding God said "an eye for an eye" while Jesus said "turn the other cheek". God said to avoid strife or not associate yourself with anyone who brings strife into your life while Jesus said to always love and forgive. What gives??

Eye for eye and turn the other cheek are the same thing.
To His "Jewish" hearers they understood what He was talking about. The Law.

Andrew Jeremiah · Feb 3, 2018

Blade said:
Eye for an eye. In each case how was it used? Was it to be use .. hurt me I hurt you kind of thing? I think if we read above and below we find the LAW. And some in charge as in like judges carrying out this law.

God has never changed. He fulfilled the law. He didnt make it easier but raised the bar. Eye for an eye is easy.. turning the other cheek...yeah not so easy lol.. or where you could look at that woman/man and lust.. now.. you just think at them you did sin. And they way it is now.. is NOT the way it was then. Do you believe they had what we have written in us? NO they did not.

Blade, eye for eye and turn the other cheek is the same thing.

Andrew Jeremiah · Feb 9, 2018

curious mike said:
Hey guys, I can use some clarity on this please. Far as I am understanding God said "an eye for an eye" while Jesus said "turn the other cheek". God said to avoid strife or not associate yourself with anyone who brings strife into your life while Jesus said to always love and forgive. What gives??

Me! I give!
The command "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe and life for life" IS "turn the other cheek."

And the command to "always love and forgive" is a command given to the children of Israel in Covenant with God - an Israel consisting of twelve tribes - all tribes in Covenant with God. Read the Bible (if you are Christian) as it was written: By God and given TO and FOR His people (Israel and Church) ONLY.
The Scripture - the Word of God, the Bible - was written by God the Holy Spirit and given each at their appointed TIME to and for believers in Covenant with God ONLY.

It was never given to the world.

Conflicting messages between God and Jesus?

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