Confirmation

[eightfoot514]

Oh, yes, to make clear, we as Catholics don't believe God's is confined to the Sacraments. They are just one way in which God can work through us. This holds true for Confirmation as well. This is one way the Church explains Confirmation:

Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:
-it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, "Abba! Father!";
-it unites us more firmly to Christ;
-it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;
-it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;
-it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross.

We don't believe it to be magic; it is an ongoing process in which the Holy Spirit is working within us, but, we don't believe that is the onlyway the Holy Spirit works within us.

 

[muffler dragon]

Oh, yes, to make clear, we as Catholics don't believe God's is confined to the Sacraments. They are just one way in which God can work through us. This holds true for Confirmation as well. This is one way the Church explains Confirmation:

Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:
-it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, "Abba! Father!";
-it unites us more firmly to Christ;
-it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;
-it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;
-it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross.

We don't believe it to be magic; it is an ongoing process in which the Holy Spirit is working within us, but, we don't believe that is the onlyway the Holy Spirit works within us.

I had never known all this before, eightfoot.

Very interesting read.

Not to sound sarcastic, but I didn't realize that it took a particular act to do the things you state.

Shalom,

m.d.

 

[Polycarp1]

So does that say that Methodists and Presbyterians and Anglican/Epicopalians are pretty close to the same thing?

No, it's a point on which I am heterodox. Orthodox Anglican doctrine says that it requires a bishop to ordain or confirm -- in which we are more stringent than the Catholics, who permit their Roman Rite priests to confirm Eastern Rite Catholics in the absence of a bishop or an Eastern Rite priest.

But my studies into the early church have convinced me that:
1. The episkopoi and the presbuterioi were originally the same non-itinerant assistants to the itinerant apostles, charged with building up the church in that one place.
2. The church very early on, well before the deaths of the last apostles, began to differentiate between the chief overseer of the local church and his assistants the elders.
3. Those two positions evolved into today's bishops and priests/pastors respectively.
4. The powers inherent in the combined job remain present in all who hold either office today -- but must be exercised in accord with the Church's canons. Ergo, not every priest can go out ordaining at random -- the bishop, charged with maintaining the spiritual order and authority of the church, is the proper minister of that job. But in a case of emergency, the faculty is present.

 

[SPALATIN]

By permission of the person who posted this on a similar thread in the Theologia Crucis-Lutheran forum by name of "filosofer"

The real issue has to do with the definition of "sacrament". For Lutherans we define sacrament as:


1. Instituted by Christ/God

2. Conveys forgiveness of sins

3. Visible sign attached to the promise

None of the five meets those requirements:

Confirmation - doesn't meet any of them
Holy Orders/Ordination of the Clergy - #1
Anointing of the Sick - #1
Marriage - #1, and sometimes # 3
Penance/Confession/Reconciliation of the Penitent - #1, #2

Some would see the last as a 1/2 sacrament, the only thing lacking is the visible sign. However, in some of the Confessions, Confession/Absolution is mentioned as a sacrament.

 

[Phoebe]

"I give thanks to God always for you because of the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in every way you were enriched in him with all speech and with all knowledge- even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed among you- so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift..."
1 Corinthians 1:4-7

 

[eightfoot514]

The real issue has to do with the definition of "sacrament". For Lutherans we define sacrament as:

1. Instituted by Christ/God
2. Conveys forgiveness of sins
3. Visible sign attached to the promise

None of the five meets those requirements:
...
Anointing of the Sick - #1

It seems to me that Jesus did institute Anointing of the Sick. Also, when the book of James refers to this Sacrament, it says, "if he have committed any sins, they shall be forgiven." The visible sign attached to the promise is the anointing with oil in the name of the Lord.

Mark 6:12-13,16:18 - So they went out and preached that men should repent. And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them. Jesus said, "They will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

James 5:14-15 - Is any among you sick? Let him call for the priests of the Church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith shall save the sick man, and the Lord shall raise him up, and if he has committed any sins, they shall be forgiven.

Aren't all three requirements for a Sacrament met in Anointing of the Sick?

 

[SPALATIN]

It seems to me that Jesus did institute Anointing of the Sick. Also, when the book of James refers to this Sacrament, it says, "if he have committed any sins, they shall be forgiven." The visible sign attached to the promise is the anointing with oil in the name of the Lord.

Mark 6:12-13,16:18 - So they went out and preached that men should repent. And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them. Jesus said, "They will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

James 5:14-15 - Is any among you sick? Let him call for the priests of the Church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith shall save the sick man, and the Lord shall raise him up, and if he has committed any sins, they shall be forgiven.

Aren't all three requirements for a Sacrament met in Anointing of the Sick?

But does it meet all three requirements? No. It only meets the first criteria so it is not a sacrament in the Lutheran church. The only two that meet all the criteria is Holy Baptism and Holy Communion.

 

[eightfoot514]

But does it meet all three requirements? No. It only meets the first criteria so it is not a sacrament in the Lutheran church. The only two that meet all the criteria is Holy Baptism and Holy Communion.

Does Anointing of the Sick meet the following criteria?

1. Instituted by Christ/God - Yes
2. Conveys forgiveness of sins - "And if he has committed any sins, they will be forgiven." Yes
3. Visible sign attached to the promise - "Anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord." Yes

Ah well, I guess we aren't quite looking at it in the same way.

 

[findingneo]

Hi there,

Was wondering???

1. What is the biblical basis for confirmation?
2. Can the Holy Spirit be given without the receiver being an active participant (ie choosing to receive)?

Would appreciate any comments.

 

[Polycarp1]

Well, a part of the problem with Anointing is that the authority for it is found in James -- it was not a direct command of Christ in propria persona but mediated through an Apostle. Now, the question of how much authority you give to the words of an apostle in Scripture as reflecting God's command comes into play.

We Anglicans have no problem with using the term "sacraments" of Marriage, Unction, Holy Orders, Confirmation, and Reconciliation -- but we make a point of noting that what Christ directly commanded along the line of Sacraments was Baptism and Eucharist -- and those are the two that a Christian, in the absence of odd and extreme circumstances like a deathbed conversion, is expected to participate in. The other five are there, important, but not mandatory in the way that the two Gospel Sacraments are.

I've been trying to find the passage in Acts where it speaks of the apostles laying hands on people already baptized, to answer findingneo's first question (cute name, by the way!) -- and instead found the first instance of Ordination -- Acts 6:6, where the apostles pray over and lay hands on the first seven deacons.

In response to findingneo's second question, let's note that the Holy Spirit is a Person of the Godhead -- He's not "given" like a kid's action figure or a driver's license, but rather comes upon people and endows them with gifts ("the gifts of the Holy Spirit" being "gifts given by Him" rather than "Him given as a gift") -- and He does this in diverse ways for diverse purposes. Certainly in the prevenient grace that enters into all of us and gives us the faith to accept Christ as Savior and Lord, He is "given" without us being active participants -- rather, He is given in order that we may become active participants in grace. But humankind is manifold and various, and the work of the Holy Spirit inside each individual person, indwelling and remodeling that person into what God intends him/her to be, is incapable of handy pigeonholes of classification. Paul makes this clear in speaking of us as "members" -- i.e., appendages, organs: hands and feet and eyes and ears -- of the Body of Christ, each equipped by the Spirit with particular gifts for the building up of the whole Body.

 

[findingneo]

Hi there,

Thanks for taking the time to answer polycarp1!!! Much appreciated. I am going to look for the passage in Acts but was wondering exactly what confirmation is described (not the best word to use probably but it will do) as in the Anglican denomination and can anyone tell me what, if any, differences there are between this and other denominations that practise confirmation.

As for your response to my second question I was using the term 'given' as I had just read it in one of the previous posts. I guess what I was trying to understand was if it was a widely held view that the HS was 'given' at confirmation. I completely agree that the HS comes upon people rather than being 'given' and certainly did not mean to offend Him. I'm not very good with words but hopefully you'll get the gist of my questions. My only background information comes from some limited contact with the Baptist denomination and Vineyard.

By the way, thanks for the compliment re my name. Did you work out the meaning? (not that you have to!!!)

 

[SPALATIN]

Does Anointing of the Sick meet the following criteria?

1. Instituted by Christ/God - Yes
2. Conveys forgiveness of sins - "And if he has committed any sins, they will be forgiven." Yes
3. Visible sign attached to the promise - "Anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord." Yes

Ah well, I guess we aren't quite looking at it in the same way.

Here is the answer I got from a clergyman (Lutheran) on the subject.

1. It is not instituted by Christ (as was Baptism and Lord's Supper); and note that it is not something prescribed (commanded) for the church, but something encouraged for the individual.

2. Regarding the forgiveness of sins, the main issue is that James refers to healing as the purpose of the anointing/praying. Forgiveness is incidental ("and if he has committed sins"). Thus, the purpose of anointing with oil and praying is for healing. This is also a personal, not a communal, activity. in other words, for the sacrament in Lutheran theology, it is applicable to everyone in the fellowship (LS with the provision of examination). The healing ministry is not for everyone in the fellowship, only those who are sick. In a sense, the forgiveness issue takes it way from the healing ministry and puts it back into the Confession/Absolution arena. (Again, this goes back to defining a sacrament as one which conveys forgiveness of sins.)

3. Yes, oil would be a visible sign.


He also said that this rite has more precedence than Confirmation.

Scott

 

[DanielRB]

Hi all,

I hope this isn't straying too far from the OP, but I thought I'd throw my two cents in on the annointing of the sick.

In James 5:14, the word for anoint is "aleipho" 218, which is somewhat of a mundane word for "anoint." The word "chrio" 5548 is used in more religious contexts. Anointing with oil was a common medicinal practice (with some magical connotations in certain contexts) at the time and does not necessarily have religious overtones (as it does now).

Here are the contexts of the words as used in the New Testament:
aleipho
Matt 6:17--cleaning the face
Mar 6:13--anointing the sick
Mar 16:1--anointing Jesus' body in the tomb
Luke 7:38--anointing Jesus' feet
Luke 7:46--anointing the head (or not, in this case)
John 11:2--anointing Jesus' feet
John 12:3--anointing Jesus' feet
James 5:14--anointing the sick

chrio
Luke 4:18--Quote from Isaiah 61:1, anointed to preach
Acts 4:27--Refers to Jesus' anointing
Acts 10:38--Jesus' anointing with the Holy Spirit
2 Cor 1:21--Our anointing by God
Heb 1:9--Quote from Psalm 45:7, the Son's anointing by God

Here's a short exerpt from the TDNT:

3. The Anointing of the Sick.​

To understand Mk. 6:13 and Jm. 5:14 we must recall the practice and meaning of anointing with a view to healing in Hellenism and Judaism. Oil is applied a. medicinally to alleviate and cure various sicknesses: Jos.Bell., 1, 657 == Ant., 17, 172; PhiloSom., II, 58; Is. 1:6; and Rabbinic examples of the use of oil for sciatic pains, skin afflictions, headaches, wounds etc.;3 b. magico-medicinally, and especially as a means of exorcism. It is hard to draw the line between a. and b. Since sickness is ascribed very largely to demonic influence, it is easy to see why medicinal anointing should come to have the character of a victorious action in expulsion of demons. This is especially so in the case of afflictions with psychic manifestations or causes. Anointing against possession is mentioned by Celsus Med., III, 23, 3. In Test. Sol. 18:34 we read: ἔν τις βαλεῖ ἅλας εἰς ἔλαιον καὶ ἐπαλείψει τὸν ἀσθενῆ λέγων· χερουβίμ, σεραφίμ, βοηθεῖτε, εὐθὺς ἀναχωρῶ (sc. the demon). Anointings at conjurations are found in jMS, 53b, 484 and for the healing and release of one who is bewitched in Midr. Qoh., 1, 8, (9a).5 c. A further step is taken when there is ascribed to oil a heavenly power to change or to dispense life. On this point, cf. esp. Vit. Ad., 36 and 40–42, and also Slav. En. 22:8ff. (8, 5): “And the Lord said to Michael, Come forth, and divest Enoch of his earthly garments, rub him with a goodly salve and clothe him in the garments of my glory. And he did so; and the appearance of that salve was more than a great light, its creaminess as the dew, its perfume as myrrh, and its shining as the rays of the sun. And I beheld myself, and I was as one of His glorious ones …” This is the salve which in Iren., I, 21, 3 is called a τύπος τῆς ὑπὲρ τὰ ὅλα εὐωδίας. Cf. also Euseb.Hist. Eccl., V, 1, 35.​

​

In the Christian sphere, too, we find the use of oil both as a medicine (Lk. 10:34) and for the combined purpose of medicine and exorcism, oil being consecrated for these uses. Cf. Act. Thom., 67, where Jesus is asked to come and anoint those who are troubled by demons: καὶ ἀλείψας αὐτὴν ἐλαίῳ ἁγίῳ θεράπευσον ἀπὸ τῶν ἑλκῶν καὶ διατήρησον αὐτὴν ἀπὸ τῶν λύκων τῶν διαρπαζόντων. The restoration of the Emperor Antoninus by a Christian by means of consecrated oil is described in TertullianScapul., 4. Cf. Chrys.Hom. in Mt. 32 (33), 6 (MPG, 57, 384). One who is possessed is healed by means of anointing in Palladius, Hist. Laus., 18 p. 55, Butler. Naturally there is the same use in magic, as we learn from the great Paris magic papyrus (Preis. Zaub., IV), 3007 f. Alongside this magico-medicinal use there also developed a sacramental, a. in the form of a baptism in oil which is found among the Gnostics6 either in place of7 water baptism or alongside it;8 b. as an exorcism prior to the act of baptism in the Church; and c. in the form of a sacrament of death, though this is found only among the Marcosites in Iren., I, 21, 5 and with Heracleon in Epiph.Haer., 36, 2, 4 ff., and it is uncertain whether “what is meant is really a sacrament for the dying or a consecration of the dead.”9 Outside Christianity the Mandaeans have a final anointing of the dying as well as a consecration with oil, cf. Lidz. Lit., 114 ff., Ginza, 326 f., 591, 12 f. and 28 f.http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=9070135#_ftn17​

Act. Thom. Acts of Thomas.

Tertullian Q. Septimius Tertullianus Florens, of Carthage (160–220 a.d.), ed. A. Reifferscheid and G. Wissowa. 1890 ff.

Scapul. Ad Scapulam.

Chrys. John Chrysostom, of Antioch (344–401 a.d.), bishop of Constantinople, whose sermons mark the climax of early Christian homiletics, ed. in MPG, 47–64, 1862 ff.

Hom. in Mt. Homilies on Matthew.

MPG Patrologia, Series Graeca, ed. J.P. Migne, 1844 ff.

Hist. Laus. Historia Lausiaca, ed. D.C. Buttler, 1898 ff.

Preis. K. Preisendanz, Papyri Graecae Magicae, 1928 ff.

6 The masc. behind the fem. is to be understood as permutative apposition (Ges.-Kautzsch § 131 k). E. König (Komm., 123) interprets אֱמֶת as an accusative of manner or mode, though this is hardly to do justice to the usage in expressions like אֱמֶת הַדָּבָר and אֱמֶת הָיָה הַרָּבָד, on which both passages recline.

7 LXX: ἐπ᾽ ἀληθείας, understands אֱמֶת here adverbially as an indication of the attitude of the prophet—a softening which can hardly he right. Cf. also Da. 8:26.

8 In 1 K. 22:16 (2 Ch 18:15) also we have an official hearing and the king demands that Michaiah should say in the name of Yahweh only that which is actually so (רַק אֱמֶת),

Iren. Irenaeus, of Asia Minor, bishop of Lyons, martyred 202 a.d. during the persecution under Severus, ed. in MPG, 7, 1882.

Epiph. Epiphanius, of Eleutheropolis in Palestine, bishop of Constantia in Cyprus (298–403 a.d.), opponent of 80 Christian, Jewish and Gnostic heresies in his rich and comprehensive work Πανάριον κατὰ πασῶν τῶν αἱρέσεων, ed. K. Holl, 1922.

Haer. Haereses.

9 At least in the mind of the author of the gloss, who possibly inserted the second אֱמֶת. if such a vague assumption is really necessary.

Lidz. Lit. M. Lidzbarski, Mandäische Liturgien, 1920.

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=9070135#_ftnref17Theological dictionary of the New Testament. 1964-c1976. Vols. 5-9 edited by Gerhard Friedrich. Vol. 10 compiled by Ronald Pitkin. (G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley & G. Friedrich, Ed.) (Vol. 1, Page 230-231). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

​

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=9070135#_ftn18Jos. Flavius Josephus, Jewish author (c. 37–97 a.d.) in Palestine and later Rome, author in Greek of the Jewish War and Jewish Archaeology, which treat of the period from creation to Nero, ed. B. Niese, 1887 ff.

Bell. Bellum Judaicum.

Ant. Antiquitates.

Philo Philo, of Alexandria (c. 20 b.c.–50 a.d.), ed. L. Cohn and P. Wendland.

Som. De Somniis.

3 v. Str.-B., I, 428 f.; II, 11 f.

Med. Medicina.

Test. Sol. Testament of Solomon.

MS Maaser Scheni, Mishnah-, Tosefta-, Talmud tractate The Second Tithe (Strack, Einl., 35).

4 Str.-B., I, 429.

Midr. Qoh. Midrash on Ecclesiastes (Strack, Einl., 213).

5 Ibid., III, 759.

esp. especially.

Vit. Ad. Vita Adae et Evae, Latin work from the Jewish-Christian group of writings on Adam (Schürer, III, 396 ff.), ed. W. Meyer, 1878.

Iren. Irenaeus, of Asia Minor, bishop of Lyons, martyred 202 a.d. during the persecution under Severus, ed. in MPG, 7, 1882.

Euseb. Eusebius of Caesarea (260–340 a.d.), ecclesiastical historian, ed. by different scholars in Die Griech. christl. Schriftsteller der ersten 3 Jahrhunderte, 1902 ff.

Hist. Historia Ecclesiastica.

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=9070135#_ftnref18Theological dictionary of the New Testament. 1964-c1976. Vols. 5-9 edited by Gerhard Friedrich. Vol. 10 compiled by Ronald Pitkin. (G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley & G. Friedrich, Ed.) (Vol. 1, Page 230). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

The whole article is pretty interesting, but there's not room to put it all here.

In Christ,

Daniel