Confine addicts?

[OldWiseGuy]

Thankfully this level of drug war hysteria is no longer the default so you're going to have to defending as you cannot depend on people taking it as a given.

Most people aren't prepared to give the problem the clear thought needed to affect a workable plan. "It's hard to drain the swamp when you're up to your butt in alligators."

 

[Desk trauma]

Most people aren't prepared to give the problem the clear thought needed to affect a workable plan.

There is nothing workable that you have put forward thus far.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

There is nothing workable that you have put forward thus far.

We should try it and see. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. But we have to deal with the alligators first.

 

[Desk trauma]

It's the science, and common sense, part of it.

I contend that it is common sense that if you do not violate others rights while using drugs no crime was committed.

Only if necessary to reduce the problem to a acceptable level.

What level is acceptable in your year zero?

 

[Desk trauma]

We should try it and see.

Thus far all the authoritarian schemes for the drug war have come to naught other than a gross expansion of state power and no impact on drug availability or use, why would I want to fork over even more power to the state to perpetuate this farce?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I contend that it is common sense that if you do not violate others rights while using drugs no crime was committed.

The trouble with that is that crime is almost always associated with drug use.

What level is acceptable in your year zero?

Substantial reduction in drug related crimes would indicate progress.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Thus far all the authoritarian schemes for the drug war have come to naught other than a gross expansion of state power and no impact on drug availability or use, why would I want to fork over even more power to the state to perpetuate this farce?

Those are the alligators I speak of.

 

[Desk trauma]

The trouble with that is that crime is almost always associated with drug use.

Just as violence is very often associated with heavy alcohol use yet the law does not step in until others rights are actually violated. As I have said over and over, we have a model for this you're just refusing to look at it.

Substantial reduction in drug related crimes would indicate progress.

Substantial meaning what?

 

[Desk trauma]

Those are the alligators I speak of.

Yet that's who your wanting to give even more power to.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Just as violence is very often associated with heavy alcohol use yet the law does not step in until others rights are actually violated. As I have said over and over, we have a model for this you're just refusing to look at it.

I think the differences are great enough to treat each separately.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yet that's who your wanting to give even more power to.

Not so. Whole programs need to be scrapped and the resources used for better ones. I think what most are objecting to is the confinement part of my (and several Dem candidates) plan. But confinement is the lynchpin of any workable plan.

 

[Desk trauma]

I think the differences are great enough to treat each separately.

OK, what small country are you planning on taking over and rolling back to year zero for your parallel test case?

 

[Desk trauma]

Not so. Whole programs need to be scrapped and the resources used for better ones. I think what most are objecting to is the confinement part of my (and several Dem candidates) plan. But confinement is the lynchpin of any workable plan.

Right, I suppose the people to run this program will come from the same shangri la where your legions of incorruptible staff members for the gulag will come from?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Right, I suppose the people to run this program will come from the same shangri la where your legions of incorruptible staff members for the gulag will come from?

They will be handpicked by me.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I was put on Vicodin after my bypass surgery. I probably gobbled thirty or more pills. I really enjoyed the high, while controlling my chest pain. But I was taken off of them after so many pills and put on Neurontin instead. I didn't become addicted and actually stopped taking Neurontin voluntarily. Many people experiment with hard drugs but don't become addicted.

Even experimentation can be dangerous. I don't trust opiates. At least not on a long term basis. I had a nice demerol and valium cocktail injected into me when I broke three metatarsals so that they could set them. I was extremely relaxed and could feel the bones move when they worked on my foot but could not feel any pain at all. I can see how someone could quickly get hooked on those substances.

When I had a wisdom tooth removed and they prescribed some low grade pain killers of that sort I "took them through 'osmosis'." I kept the bottle in my pocket and that seemed to be enough. When I had two others removed I only kept the prescription on me. I gave it back on the follow up and congratulated the doctor on his work.


Opiates are a valid tool, but I would err on the side of caution. The claims of pills not being addictive have been shown to be wrong too many times.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yet that's who your wanting to give even more power to.

It may be the only way to solve this problem. I have known too many that are addicted. The problem with drug addiction is that not many seem to be able to have a sustainable addiction. They become non-functional socially. They can't hold a job and have to turn to crime to support their habit. I would like to see more teeth in prosecution along with more treatment options. A bigger stick and a bigger carrot so to speak. Too many addicts now take the route of crime and homelessness. Recovery is not well supported enough for them to "risk" it and illegal sources are too easy to get. A person that I care for has just picked up some felony charges related to her addiction. Personally I am hoping for either drug court, which sometimes works, or prison. Prison is the hard road that I hope that she can avoid, but it may be the only answer for her at this time.

What I do not like about the present system is that people do have to keep reoffending until prison is the only answer.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Even experimentation can be dangerous. I don't trust opiates. At least not on a long term basis. I had a nice demerol and valium cocktail injected into me when I broke three metatarsals so that they could set them. I was extremely relaxed and could feel the bones move when they worked on my foot but could not feel any pain at all. I can see how someone could quickly get hooked on those substances.

When I had a wisdom tooth removed and they prescribed some low grade pain killers of that sort I "took them through 'osmosis'." I kept the bottle in my pocket and that seemed to be enough. When I had two others removed I only kept the prescription on me. I gave it back on the follow up and congratulated the doctor on his work.


Opiates are a valid tool, but I would err on the side of caution. The claims of pills not being addictive have been shown to be wrong too many times.

In the past few years I have been given Vicoden for a tooth extraction, gum surgery, shingles, bypass surgery, two hernia surgeries, and prostate surgery. I had a medicine cabinet full of them, most of which I crushed and buried in the yard. I did keep one bottle of them just in case my recurring back pain gets too bad.

I have to note that I was also given oxycodone for my chest pain after bypass surgery, and I tripped out very badly on it. An experience I never want to go through again. It is now on my medical record as "allergic to".

 

[Ahermit]

No, ten percent of Americans have used opioids in the last year. That does not make them addicts. There are legitimate uses of those drugs. The number of addicts that are causing problems appears to be less than one percent of the population. For example the number that used heroin in the last year was 157,000:
Topic: Opioid use in the U.S.

According to the National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH), 19.7 million American adults (aged 12 and older) battled a substance use disorder in 2017.
Addiction Statistics | Drug & Substance Abuse Statistics

 

[Subduction Zone]

According to the National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH), 19.7 million American adults (aged 12 and older) battled a substance use disorder in 2017.
Addiction Statistics | Drug & Substance Abuse Statistics

That statistic is rather meaningless.. We were discussing opiates and opioids. That applies to much more.

 

[Ahermit]

That statistic is rather meaningless.. We were discussing opiates and opioids. That applies to much more.

You mean it is you who is discussing opiates and opioids.
I am simply addressing the original post, which does not specify opiates and opioids.