• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Goatee

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.
Aug 16, 2015
7,585
3,619
60
Under a Rock. Wales, UK
✟77,615.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Divorced

Then you were taught incorrectly.
 
Upvote 0

JESUS=G.O.A.T

Well-Known Member
Dec 29, 2016
2,683
659
28
Houston
✟75,941.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Apostolic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
may i ask the point you are making, what position are you holding to my brother?
Also the reason I posted the the born again stuff was just a response to your OP. You claimed that just confessing Jesus as savior is salvation I disagreed so I responded
 
Upvote 0

lettuce

Active Member
Oct 17, 2017
76
27
56
new york
✟29,022.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private

Why indeed and it's not by me. Nothing Jesus said is invalid but one must keep reading to understand what Jesus is saying.

In Luke 11, when the Lord's prayer is over, what does Jesus say? Luke 11:5-13.

Does God give you death when you are looking for life? Luke 11:12, 2 Corinthians 3:6

Does God give you law when you need grace? Matthew 7:9, Romans 11:6.

If you beg and asks for forgiveness for every sin and for every wrong that is perceived or imagined to be sin (the only sin is unbelief), are you treating God as a friend or a stranger? Proverbs 18:24, James 2:23.

Ask, seek, knock is not kneel, cry, beg. Luke 11:9-10
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,194
6,997
71
USA
✟585,424.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single

You never really say anything there accept nothing Jesus said is invalid...meaning we do need to ask forgiveness.

If you have other points to make, you absolutely did not make them, entirely too vague.

Two point blank questions and please don't evade these too.

What in those scriptures say we should not ask for forgiveness as Jesus sad to do? And as more than indicated, where do they state we actually do wrong by asking for forgiveness? If it's there, I'm not seeing it.

It appears you are somewhere in the neighborhood of OSAS, and if true, and I do say if...evasion and vagueness is a quality I see all to often in that area. There's a reason for that, but hoping you can give us something solid.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
30,707
9,615
NW England
✟1,273,052.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

There is a BIG difference between saying, "Lord, I let you down again; I admit I did wrong and I'm sorry. Please forgive me and make me clean again so I can serve you".
And saying, "Lord, I grovel at your feet; PLEASE forgive this wretched worm who deserves nothing from you. Please, please, please I beg you, try and forgive me ........."

We are told to confess our sin to God so that he can forgive us and make us clean. The second example is not wrong, though a bit over the top.
What IS wrong is to sin against God and just casually say, "oh, yeah you've already forgiven me for that haven't you?" In other words, "God HAS forgiven all the sins I will ever commit, so it doesn't matter if I commit them, or how I live."

As I said, that was the problem in the Corinthian church; their attitude was, Jesus has set us free, so we can do what we like. They couldn't, and neither can we.
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,194
6,997
71
USA
✟585,424.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If you beg and asks for forgiveness for every sin and for every wrong that is perceived or imagined to be sin (the only sin is unbelief), are you treating God as a friend or a stranger? Proverbs 18:24, James 2:23.

I would like to comment on more what you are doing there than anything else.

Who here ever said they had to beg? If the sin is bad enough and you feel in your heart you need to then absolutely go for it, but other wise, you are making that up? why?

Every perceived sin? who is saying that? Is there a part of the simple/unconfusing comment from Christ "Forgive us our trespasses" that you don't understand? Why do you try to confuse that with inaccurate/made up comments? I'll tell you why in a sec.

The only sin is unbelief? what am I supposed top say when someone pretty well says if you believe, you have no sin. Of course you have sin, we do it every day and some of us actually as forgiveness for it regularly. How does the verse go? If we say we have no sin, we are a liar, and the truth is not in us?

Are you actually saying if we abide by what Christ flat out told us to do, we are a stranger to God? No further comment.

I may later try to get to the point of exactly what I think you are doing there but since I have a terrible time sorting out what the site calls flaming and just debating, so not at the moment. As I recall It's actually impossible to tell, so If I don't get into it, hope some of you can see the big picture there.
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,261
1,768
The land of OZ
✟345,480.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
You've parsed it, as many have, I agree. But why do you think Dr. Young parsed it very differently?

YLT Mat 16:19 and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'

And as I mentioned earlier Young's parsing lines up in scriptural consistency with Matt 6, a point you didn't address, but I'm hoping you will.

YLT MAT 6:10 'Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on the earth.

It is simply obvious that the KJV as well as in many other bible versions there is obvious contradiction, would you not agree?


KJV MAT 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

MAT 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.


In checking my Greek Interlinear book, they have the same rendering in the literal Greek as Young's translation/interpretation. But they have the "having been bound" and "having been loosed" both italicized in the 'literal' translation. And then in the KJV and NIV versions on the opposite page of the Greek Interlinear, they also have a footnote on verse 19 in the NIV version which says that the word "be"...as in "will be bound in heaven" is also interpteted as 'have been'. Which again agrees with Young's translation. So I'm still feeling pretty secure in my take which keeps scripture consistent.

Have you any explanation as to why the more 'favored interpretation' which you like (along with most) is inconsistent within scripture concerning this 'point of origin' for authority and power?
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,261
1,768
The land of OZ
✟345,480.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Then you were taught incorrectly.

Well you're certainly entitled to 'your opinion'....now back it up. Just maybe it YOU that was "taught incorrectly". And since you're still a Catholic, it's probably best for US if you defend your POV with more than " you say, I say". That makes sense to me anyway.
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,194
6,997
71
USA
✟585,424.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single

Hill, I should, but don't actually recall for sure, are you on the side of universalism? or something close? If not, I guess I should just ask...what?
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,261
1,768
The land of OZ
✟345,480.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Hill, I should, but don't actually recall for sure, are you on the side of universalism? or something close? If not, I guess I should just ask...what?
Just "universalism"....I'd say, NO! Christian Universalism...I'd sayYes! But I prefer...Ultimate Reconciliation.

Having settled 'that' 1st. question, your "....what?" question makes no more sense to me, in this post or thread, than the one asking about universalism. And given my past endeavors to dialogue with you, I might not have answered your "....what?", even if I did understand what it is in reference to. Sorry.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,194
6,997
71
USA
✟585,424.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Just "universalism"....I'd say, NO! Christian Universalism...I'd sayYes! But I prefer...Ultimate Reconciliation.

Kind of thought it was something like that, that's why I finally just asked, and the "what" was me asking what exactly it was, but yes, badly worded... 'tis I who am sorry.

And don't worry, I won't force to to defend yourself, been there already, I honestly just forgot what that stuff was, and I did want to make note of exactly where you were coming from when I saw the "Charismatic" in your profile so there is no confusion here. And no, please don't explain that.

Carry on, and I'll do my best to hold my peace.
 
Reactions: Hillsage
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,419
28,845
Pacific Northwest
✟808,849.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others

The YLT doesn't suggest anything any different than what I have, note that he translates it "shall be having been bound".

Also I don't see a contradiction here, the authority is Christ's, and all authority is His in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18).

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

Pitcharan

Member
Jul 31, 2017
11
15
68
Tamil Nadu
✟24,292.00
Country
India
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
.... After you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and you like 2 Cor 5:17 states "Become new" do you still confess your sins to God seeking forgiveness? I know the truth, I just wanna see what others have to say on the topic....

"Becoming new" is a process and to "stop sinning" is a long walk to freedom. I understood this best in Luke's Gospel and quote the below content from my recent article ( www.academia.edu/33793552/A_REFLECTION_ON_LUKES_GOSPEL ):
 
Upvote 0

shaheem white

Greetings in the Matchless Name Of Jesus!!!!!!
Jul 22, 2017
143
138
39
Newark
✟47,848.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,261
1,768
The land of OZ
✟345,480.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
The YLT doesn't suggest anything any different than what I have, note that he translates it "shall be having been bound".
You don't see the difference between the 'future tense' "shall be" followed by the 'past tense' "having been bound"? That surprises me. I clearly perceive a flow of God's authority from heaven to earth...in that order. Not only in that verse, but in the Lord's prayer.

YLT Mat 16:19 and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be (in the future) having been bound (in the past) in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be (future) (past) in the heavens.'

Also I don't see a contradiction here, the authority is Christ's, and all authority is His in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18)
Again I'm surprised, it isn't about the source of the authority (Christ). It is about the receiving of authority and when/where it comes from. Maybe it's more noticeable to me than you because, as was pointed out earlier, I'm of the Charismatic persuasion. A persuasion which gets a lot of flak about 'name it and claim it', 'blab it and nab it'. And I am of the opinion that it is often, deserved flak. Those practices are based upon verses like the following;

JOH 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; 14 if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

MAT 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore...

They then walk away with the belief that if I can physically name the name/moniker 'JESUS', that the cosmos must line up with them and their 'declared word'...a "declared word" which is no different IMO than that 'declared word' you spoke of earlier concerning confessional absolution of sin from a priest/pastor.

But I look at those verses in the light of my failed experiences concerning 'name it claim it' 'blab and nab'. Looking at scripture differently now, I realize that if I haven't heard a RHEMA/spoken word FROM HEAVEN first, giving me the AUTHORITY to a 'subsequently' speak a 'declared word', then what happens just may not be 'of God'...but man. Just like scripture confirms in Matt with those who say;

MAT 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'

As you are well aware, many use these verses to point a judgmental finger at the 'charismatic movers' to say we're not even saved because Jesus doesn't know us. We're also accused of therefore doing the work of the devil. I am of the hope that you are aware enough to realize that when Jesus says "I never knew you" there is the possibility of more depth to those words than the shallow minded may be thinking. We all should know that "Jesus KNOWS ALL MEN'. But He does not commit 'Himself or His authority' to them, just because they know how to 'say' his name.


JOH 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

We are off topic, and this thread seems to be cooling down, so no response from you would probably be 'just as well'.
 
Upvote 0

faroukfarouk

Fading curmudgeon
Apr 29, 2009
35,915
17,131
Canada
✟287,108.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yes, and a purged conscience counts for a great deal; Hebrews 9.14 is a wonderful verse about the purging of the conscience by the blood of Christ Who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God. A truly purged conscience can truly enjoy the peace of John 14.27 and Romans 5.1.
 
Reactions: iwbswiaihl2
Upvote 0