Confederate Flag

billwald · Feb 16, 2004

Follow the money trail. Slavery was tried but failed because 1) the slaves couldn't be taught to run the spinning machinery and 2) it was cheaper to hire white people and fire them when business declined. Slaves had to be fed year round.

Because of the nature of the trade winds, it was faster to send a ship from Charlston to England than from Charlston to Boston. The southern farmers preferred to sell the cotton to England. The more populous North passed laws to force the South to sell the cotton to the North.

The origional colonies formed a voluntary association. It should be possible to leave voluntary associations.

This country is to big. Time to split into at least 4 countries.

1. Everything west of the Rockies.
2. From the Rockies to the Mississippi
3. East of the Mississippi and North of the Mason-Dixon line.
4. East of the Mississippi and south of the line.

Higgaion · Feb 16, 2004

Dixie,

Great post! I don't think anyone could have said it much better, so I applaud you. It's true, many of the greatest contributions to American art and culture originated in the South. The only other thing I might add in response to Lillith, is that we're proud because this is where we come from. It's our home and the home of our ancestors, many of whom were honorable, God-fearing Christians. The majority didn't hold more than one or two slaves at most, and generally treated them with human dignity and provided their needs so that they enjoyed a better standard of living than many "free" white Northerners of the same era, despite the propaganda we so often hear. And regardless of whether anyone agrees with their reasons for doing so, Southerners fought nobly and bravely against great odds to defend their country, sustaining incredible losses in the War to Prevent Southern Independence (Civil War). In short, there is much to be proud of. Pride, not conceit or arrogance. Of course, that doesn't describe each and every individual. There are always exceptions, but that holds true everywhere.

msjones21 · Feb 16, 2004

Higgaion said:
It's true, many of the greatest contributions to American art and culture originated in the South.

And alot of it has African-American roots which brings us back to the point of the Conferderate flag being offensive to black people as a whole.

DixieBelle · Feb 16, 2004

msjones21 said:
And alot of it has African-American roots which brings us back to the point of the Conferderate flag being offensive to black people as a whole.

No actually, that is a tribute to the Southern culture, which is unique in that it is a wonderful mixture of black and white coming together to form what we know today as being Southern, IMHO.

SUNDAE · Feb 16, 2004

Higgaion said:
Dixie,

Great post! I don't think anyone could have said it much better, so I applaud you. It's true, many of the greatest contributions to American art and culture originated in the South. The only other thing I might add in response to Lillith, is that we're proud because this is where we come from. It's our home and the home of our ancestors, many of whom were honorable, God-fearing Christians. The majority didn't hold more than one or two slaves at most, and generally treated them with human dignity and provided their needs so that they enjoyed a better standard of living than many "free" white Northerners of the same era, despite the propaganda we so often hear. And regardless of whether anyone agrees with their reasons for doing so, Southerners fought nobly and bravely against great odds to defend their country, sustaining incredible losses in the War to Prevent Southern Independence (Civil War). In short, there is much to be proud of. Pride, not conceit or arrogance. Of course, that doesn't describe each and every individual. There are always exceptions, but that holds true everywhere.

God fearing Christians??? Who only kept one or two slaves??? I fear most 'God fearing Christians' would have a lot to answer for. There are many in the African American community who have rejected Christianity because of the example they have seen in the so-called "bible belt".

praying · Feb 16, 2004

billwald said:
Follow the money trail. Slavery was tried but failed because 1) the slaves couldn't be taught to run the spinning machinery and 2) it was cheaper to hire white people and fire them when business declined. Slaves had to be fed year round.

Because of the nature of the trade winds, it was faster to send a ship from Charlston to England than from Charlston to Boston. The southern farmers preferred to sell the cotton to England. The more populous North passed laws to force the South to sell the cotton to the North.

The origional colonies formed a voluntary association. It should be possible to leave voluntary associations.

This country is to big. Time to split into at least 4 countries.

1. Everything west of the Rockies.
2. From the Rockies to the Mississippi
3. East of the Mississippi and North of the Mason-Dixon line.
4. East of the Mississippi and south of the line.

What exactly are you saying here? Sounds like racist rhetoric to me, slaves couldn't be taught to run the wheel.

praying · Feb 16, 2004

Higgaion said:
Dixie,

Great post! I don't think anyone could have said it much better, so I applaud you. It's true, many of the greatest contributions to American art and culture originated in the South. The only other thing I might add in response to Lillith, is that we're proud because this is where we come from. It's our home and the home of our ancestors, many of whom were honorable, God-fearing Christians. The majority didn't hold more than one or two slaves at most, and generally treated them with human dignity and provided their needs so that they enjoyed a better standard of living than many "free" white Northerners of the same era, despite the propaganda we so often hear. And regardless of whether anyone agrees with their reasons for doing so, Southerners fought nobly and bravely against great odds to defend their country, sustaining incredible losses in the War to Prevent Southern Independence (Civil War). In short, there is much to be proud of. Pride, not conceit or arrogance. Of course, that doesn't describe each and every individual. There are always exceptions, but that holds true everywhere.

Slavery whether well treated or not is not propaganda, and to justify it by saying well I only owned a couple of them is insensative at the least and absolutely absurd at best. I suggest you read the slave narratives from the link I posted to get a better understanding of what it meant to be OWENED by another human being.

DixieBelle · Feb 16, 2004

Higgaion said:
Dixie,

Great post! I don't think anyone could have said it much better, so I applaud you. It's true, many of the greatest contributions to American art and culture originated in the South. The only other thing I might add in response to Lillith, is that we're proud because this is where we come from. It's our home and the home of our ancestors, many of whom were honorable, God-fearing Christians. The majority didn't hold more than one or two slaves at most, and generally treated them with human dignity and provided their needs so that they enjoyed a better standard of living than many "free" white Northerners of the same era, despite the propaganda we so often hear. And regardless of whether anyone agrees with their reasons for doing so, Southerners fought nobly and bravely against great odds to defend their country, sustaining incredible losses in the War to Prevent Southern Independence (Civil War). In short, there is much to be proud of. Pride, not conceit or arrogance. Of course, that doesn't describe each and every individual. There are always exceptions, but that holds true everywhere.

Thank ya, sir! And thumbs up to your post as well!

Godzman · Feb 16, 2004

I wanted to address an issue I have seen cropping up around here.

When paul writes about slavery and women, one must understand he wasn't preaching a social gospel he wanted it to be focused on Christ.

People will turn the gospel into their crusades and it is not, the gospel is spiritual not a social gospel.

People who claim biblical support for slavery are wrong, the bible is neutral on that and many other social issues, but we can come to moral conclusions by using biblical text.

praying · Feb 16, 2004

Godzman said:
I wanted to address an issue I have seen cropping up around here.

When paul writes about slavery and women, one must understand he wasn't preaching a social gospel he wanted it to be focused on Christ.

People will turn the gospel into their crusades and it is not, the gospel is spiritual not a social gospel.

People who claim biblical support for slavery are wrong, the bible is neutral on that and many other social issues, but we can come to moral conclusions by using biblical text.

I disagree that the Bible is neutral in regards to slavery it stops short of our right reccomendation of it but it is clearly condoned as part of the norm in many Biblical passages. Women also were viewed as less than equal to their amle counterparts.

Des that mean the Bible should be used to defend injustices no, but to say the Bible is neutral is a fallacy.

SUNDAE · Feb 16, 2004

Godzman said:
I wanted to address an issue I have seen cropping up around here.

When paul writes about slavery and women, one must understand he wasn't preaching a social gospel he wanted it to be focused on Christ.

People will turn the gospel into their crusades and it is not, the gospel is spiritual not a social gospel.

People who claim biblical support for slavery are wrong, the bible is neutral on that and many other social issues, but we can come to moral conclusions by using biblical text.

The Bible is not exactly neutral concerning the issue of slavery. Slavery was an institution in the ancient Israel, but there were SPECIFIC guidelines and SPECIFIC circumstances under which a person can be enslaved. There was also provisions made for his eventual release from slavery.
The enslavement of a race of people is not scriptural. We are all made in the image of God and one race is not superior to another.

Slavery in the South was based on the premise that white is superior to black. It's a racist belief and anyone who claims to know Christ as Saviour should know this.

SUNDAE · Feb 16, 2004

Martin Luther King challenged the white segregationist clergy to respond to this question, "who is their God? Is their God the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph? And is their savior the Savior who hung on a cross at Golgotha?"

MLK was challenging their (the white clergy) image of Christ. like the slaves before him, he believed that the image of a White Christ that the segregationists held was in conflict with the liberating message that the gospels of Jesus taught.

MLK at the time made what was then a radical move, he called African-Americans children of God. By doing so, he identified God with the plight of the oppressed, namely, the African Americans.

He told the believers of the White Christ:

African Americans have the same rights as they [Whites] but that God cared just as much for the Blacks as well as the Whites.

Malcolm X taught that Christianity itself was a tool to keep African-Americans in their place. he thought the "turn-the-other-cheek" attitude was use by the slaveholders to keep their slaves passive and content on this Earth.

Sadly, because of the 'witness' of white 'christian' southerners, many young black men and women are believing the lies of Islam.

praying · Feb 16, 2004

SUNDAE said:
Martin Luther King

Sadly, because of the 'witness' of white 'christian' southerners, many young black men and women are believing the lies of Islam.

I don't think you can make that claim people make their own choices. Many White Christian Southerners from the past and I am sure some from today do not believe in equality, but we as a people have to be held accountable for our own actions and choices.

SUNDAE · Feb 16, 2004

mhatten said:
I don't think you can make that claim people make their own choices. Many White Christian Southerners from the past and I am sure some from today do not believe in equality, but we as a people have to be held accountable for our own actions and choices.

This is true enough! We are responsible for the choices we make. However I don't believe this absolves professing Christians from being a witness to the true nature of God, and true biblical Christianity.

praying · Feb 16, 2004

SUNDAE said:
This is true enough! We are responsible for the choices we make. However I don't believe this absolves professing Christians from being a witness to the true nature of God, and true biblical Christianity.

Yes that is a true statement but that statement applies to all, there is no point to singling out Southern White Christians.

SUNDAE · Feb 16, 2004

I don't mean to single out individual christians. God knows I'm far from perfect, In fact I've failed many, many times.

I have a problem though, with churches that once condoned slavery by preaching that Noah, in the Book of Genesis, cursed Ham and that the black people of Africa being descendants of Ham were justifiably enslaved and treated with contempt.

This belief is far from being extinct in our society.

praying · Feb 16, 2004

SUNDAE said:
I don't mean to single out individual christians. God knows I'm far from perfect, In fact I've failed many, many times.

I have a problem though, with churches that once condoned slavery by preaching that Noah, in the Book of Genesis, cursed Ham and that the black people of Africa being descendants of Ham were justifiably enslaved and treated with contempt.

This belief is far from being extinct in our society.

I am sure it is not.

Key Of David · Feb 16, 2004

mhatten said:
I don't think you can make that claim people make their own choices. Many White Christian Southerners from the past and I am sure some from today do not believe in equality, but we as a people have to be held accountable for our own actions and choices.

Amen!

Higgaion · Feb 17, 2004

msjones21 said:
And alot of it has African-American roots which brings us back to the point of the Conferderate flag being offensive to black people as a whole.

msjones,

I dont quite agree. And I need to be careful here so I dont give the wrong impression, though thats probably unavoidable. While a certain amount of it was produced by black individuals, thats different than saying it had African roots. Very little if any of it did. Which is not to belittle the real efforts and genius of many blacks, but they would not have been able to produce without the foundation of Western culture and civilizing influence of Christianity which was imparted to them by the whites (largely in the South) they came in contact with. And they wouldnt have come under this influence at all if the Northerners, especially New Englanders, who along with the Africans who sold their own people, were primarily responsible for bringing the slaves in the first instance and dumping them on the South, hadnt done so.

SUNDAE said:
God fearing Christians???

Umm, yes?

Who only kept one or two slaves???

Yeah?

I fear most 'God fearing Christians' would have a lot to answer for.

Why is that?

There are many in the African American community who have rejected Christianity because of the example they have seen in the so-called "bible belt.

What some people do doesnt seem like a very good reason to me for rejecting Christianity. In fact, isnt that kind of the point? There are and always have been those who call themselves Christians but arent, and there have always been true Christians who at times behave atrociously because they yielded to temptations or were ignorant of certain things or a combination thereof.

mhatten said:
Slavery whether well treated or not is not propaganda, and to justify it by saying well I only owned a couple of them is insensative at the least and absolutely absurd at best.

Intentionally exaggerating the plight of most black slaves in one area of the country (the South), while at the same time failing to shine the spotlight on abuses and attitudes in another (the North) is propaganda. I wasnt trying to justify anything, nor do I feel the need to.

I suggest you read the slave narratives from the link I posted to get a better understanding of what it meant to be OWENED by another human being.

I think I can imagine it pretty well. But from what Ive heard, the majority of comments from the slave narratives by slaves about their masters, are actually favorable.

DixieBelle said:
Thank ya, sir! And thumbs up to your post as well!

*high five*

Godzman said:
When paul writes about slavery and women, one must understand he wasn't preaching a social gospel he wanted it to be focused on Christ.

What do you mean by that exactly? I think I have an idea but want to be sure.

People will turn the gospel into their crusades and it is not, the gospel is spiritual not a social gospel.

People who claim biblical support for slavery are wrong, the bible is neutral on that and many other social issues, but we can come to moral conclusions by using biblical text.

People who claim support for unbiblical forms of slavery are wrong, I agree, but disagree that Scripture is neutral on a certain variation of the institution itself. I dont think it can be considered neutral if it speaks about it but nowhere condemns it, but to the contrary gives guidelines as to how it should be practiced. Again, were talking about biblical slavery here and not the kind the African slave trade.

SUNDAE · Feb 17, 2004

Intentionally exaggerating the plight of most black slaves in one area of the country (the South)

Intentionally exaggerating???? Take your head out of that 'wonderful' southern sand and wake up to the fact that we're talking about SLAVES, people who were PROPERTY!!!

I wasnt trying to justify anything, nor do I feel the need to.

Yet you feel the need to tell us how wonderful you think the south is. Never mind its racist history.

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