Luthrans, Anglicans, and Methodists all believe in the real presence...
Yes, but look...
A great many Protestants believe that the priest or minister does--by officiating at the Lord's SUpper--cause a supernatural event to happen.
Moreover, it is not something that a layperson can do.
It is not the power to "confect blah blah blah," but it is something similar.
That is the RCC way of describing what they believe about their own priests.
As I said in my previous post, many Protestants believe that their priests/ministers have a similar power,
but it appears that you want to say that only they believe their clergy have a spiritual power of some sort. If that is the case, you are mistaken.
Christ's sacrifice was love- so therefore we can offer an equivalent in praise and love.
Laymen are non priests/ bishops. The apostles we're the first bishops, which is confirmed by both secular and church accounts...
I have answered this. What about the answer are you uncertain about?Do they claim to have "powers" to "confect the body blood soul and divinity" of the Son of God?
I have also explained this. What about that answer is confusing you? You keep trying to get someone to say that Protestant priests or ministers either believe exactly as Catholic priests do (by using the RCC description of confecting, etc.) or, if that is not the case, that they have no "power." However, they and their churches do believe that they have a power which is similar but not the same...and you want to insist that it is only the Catholic priests who have any such power.That is where an actual "quote" would be helpful - regarding "power" to confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of God the Son each weak.
You get excommunicated for apostasy, but that doesn't mean that every excommunication is about apostasy. .
You keep trying to get someone to say that Protestant priests or ministers believe exactly as Catholic priests do
I think you are having that "Laurel" - "Yanni" problem in almost every post.
I keep saying that BOTH Catholics and Protestants AGREE that Protestants are not claiming "POWERS" for their pastors
I keep saying that BOTH Catholics and Protestants AGREE that Protestants are not claiming "POWERS" for their pastors -- "powers to confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of God the Son" -- "powers" that supposedly are retained by that pastor even after he goes into apostasy and is "excommunicated"/defrocked.
How in the world that sounds to you like "You keep trying to get someone to say that Protestant priests or ministers believe exactly as Catholic priests do" -- is astounding to the reader.
That statement is false.
.
I keep saying that BOTH Catholics and Protestants AGREE that Protestants are not claiming "POWERS" for their pastors -- "powers to confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of God the Son" -- "powers" that supposedly are retained by that pastor even after he goes into apostasy and is "excommunicated"/defrocked.
Since you claim that is false... provide something other than creative writing to show that they in fact do teach it --- I am a bit surprised to see you go down that road.
There are no priests...
1 Cor 12
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
No apostle claimed to be a priest.
No Bible write claimed to be a priest
No Deacon,Elder etc - claimed to be a priest in the NT.
So then protestants have no priests with "powers" to "confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of God the Son" each week.
What then is the "change of priesthood" from the Levitical OT model to today?
Heb 7
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,
23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
"One mediator between God and man" 1 Timothy 2
Heb 8
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry
Presbyter and bishop were originally the same position. You forget that before the Gospel was written and widespread, the church was already forming structure. Many early writers talk about bishops, and their authority.
I have shown a number of examples in Hebrews 7 and 10 where the term "priest" is used and it is not "Presbyter".
hiereus -
STRONGS NT 2409: ἱερεύς
ἱερεύς, ἱερέως, ὁ (ἱερός) (from Homer down), Hebrew כֹּהֵן, a priest; one who offers sacrifices and in general is busied with sacred rites;
a. properly, of the priests of the Gentiles, Acts 14:13; of the priests of the Jews, Matthew 8:4; Matthew 12:4; Mark 1:44; (Mark 2:26); Luke 1:5; Luke 5:14; John 1:19; Heb. 7Hebrews 7:14 L T Tr WH), Hebrews 7:20 (Hebrews 7:21); Hebrews 8:4, etc.; of the high priest, Acts 5:24 R G (Exodus 35:18; 1 Kings 1:8; 1 Macc. 15:1; Josephus, Antiquities 6, 12, 1); and in the same sense Christ is called ἱερεύς in Hebrews 5:6 (from Psalm 109:4 (Ps. 110:4); Hebrews 7:17; also ἱερεύς μέγας, Hebrews 10:21
So in the absence of any movement there, nothing can be gained by going round that mulberry bush one more time.
Presbyter and bishop were originally the same position. You forget that before the Gospel was written and widespread, the church was already forming structure. Many early writers talk about bishops, and their authority.
I didn't say it was the same word, .
I have shown a number of examples in Hebrews 7 and 10 where the term "priest" is used and it is not "Presbyter".
hiereus -
STRONGS NT 2409: ἱερεύς
ἱερεύς, ἱερέως, ὁ (ἱερός) (from Homer down), Hebrew כֹּהֵן, a priest; one who offers sacrifices and in general is busied with sacred rites;
a. properly, of the priests of the Gentiles, Acts 14:13; of the priests of the Jews, Matthew 8:4; Matthew 12:4; Mark 1:44; (Mark 2:26); Luke 1:5; Luke 5:14; John 1:19; Heb. 7Hebrews 7:14 L T Tr WH), Hebrews 7:20 (Hebrews 7:21); Hebrews 8:4, etc.; of the high priest, Acts 5:24 R G (Exodus 35:18; 1 Kings 1:8; 1 Macc. 15:1; Josephus, Antiquities 6, 12, 1); and in the same sense Christ is called ἱερεύς in Hebrews 5:6 (from Psalm 109:4 (Ps. 110:4); Hebrews 7:17; also ἱερεύς μέγας, Hebrews 10:21
And "yet" you would "like" to make it a "synonym"??? -- "anyway"?
Interesting that every single time the NT term is unambiguously "priest" it is hiereus
Quote from CCC: 1374
Quote:
The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.
==================
“powers” of the RC Priest retained after excommunication
The following discussion is a quote from:
Catholic Digest – Jan 1995, pg 126
Q: Our former priest has been excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church and h as opened his own Church, which he calls “Christ Catholic Mission”. He now has some kind of connection with what he calls the “Catholic Church of God and Christ” with headquarters in Missouri. More and more people are attending his church. Some are former Catholics, but those I asked did not know whether this priest still had the power of consecrating the bread and wine for Communion. Does he? M.M
A.Yes. But he commits a grave sin of disobedience if he is excommunicated… The priest’s Consecration can be valid, that is, there can be the real change of bread and wine INTO the body and blood of Christ, but it is illicit because of his excommunication and brings him no actual graces.
You sometimes hear that the reason the Church recognizes the validity of an excommunicated priest’s Mass, and his continuing power to forgive sin, is the salvation of the dying in cases of necessity. But the deeper reason is the mark of the Holy Orders, along with Baptism and Confirmation, puts on the soul.
Of course “Mark on the soul” is just a figure of speech to indicate the difference between the baptized and the nonbaptized , the confirmed and the nonconfirmed, the ordained and the nonordained. Once the status of a soul is established by any of the three sacraments, it cannot be changed by any human power so as to be like it was before the reception of these sacraments.
The apostate priest does not lose the power to confect the Eucharist or forgive sins through the sacrament of Penance. He does, by his apostasy, lose the power to do these things licitly, without sin.
========== The following is a quote of John Paul II ===========
The priest offers the holy Sacrifice in persona Christi; this means more than offering "in the name of' or "in place of" Christ. In persona means in specific sacramental identification with "the eternal High Priest"[42] who is the author and principal subject of this sacrifice of His, a sacrifice in which, in truth, nobody can take His place. Only He -- only Christ -- was able and is always able to be the true and effective "expiation for our sins and . . . for the sins of the whole world."[43] Only His sacrifice -- and no one else's -- was able and is able to have a "propitiatory power" before God, the Trinity, and the transcendent holiness. Awareness of this reality throws a certain light on the character and significance of the priest celebrant who, by confecting the holy Sacrifice and acting "in persona Christi," is sacramentally (and ineffably) brought into that most profound sacredness, and made part of it, spiritually linking with it in turn all those participating in the eucharistic assembly.
CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Dominicae Cenae (1980)
Dominicae Cenae
On the Mystery and Worship of the Eucharist
His Holiness Pope John Paul II
Promulgated on February 24, 1980
To All the Bishops of the Church.
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What say you?
(updated to add underline and highlight for parts that some folks are missing)
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