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Condemning condemnation

Is it closed minded to codemn people for condemning homosexuality?

  • Yes

  • No


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KarateCowboy

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So people are always saying that <edit> people like Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Japanese, Africans, etc are closed minded for condemning homosexuality. The premise, I believe, is that we are supposed to 'be tolerant' of people who we think are poisoning society with hideous immorality.

Now, the very same people think that we are actually poisoning society with 'intolerance' by standing up for morality, yet the virtue of practicing that same tolerance is conveniently forgotten when they are the ones pointing the fingers. The whole 'One rule for us, and another rule for you' thing.

So, is this hypocritical/closed minded?
 

Vylo

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yes, it is hypocritical. Condeming homosexuality or any behavior is not intolerance. Condemning such beliefs is the very definition of intolerance.
What do you define as condemning? Simply calling them wrong or immoral? No. Violence against them, denying them rights or otherwise persecuting them? Yes.

Condemnation of later is not hypocritical in the least.
 
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Robinsegg

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I think there's a new connotation for tolerance from the original definition.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tolerate
The first set of definitions are what I call "tolerating": That being the acknowledgment and allowance of something unpleasant to one.

The second set of definitions includes what I think of as the new concept of tolerance: That being you have to never speak against anything or anyone and be totally accepting that everything is okay and right to be tolerating it.

I accept the fact that there are homosexuals and homosexual activity in the world. I accept the fact that these people and actions will be happening in the world with or without my blessing. I believe they're wrong. When asked, I say I believe they're wrong. I try to be pleasant about the subject, and don't scream, hurt or malign these people, nor do I try to tell them not to speak.

Am I intolerant? Maybe. Are those who wish to silence me intolerant of my views? I think so.

Rachel
 
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rosewaning

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What do you define as condemning? Simply calling them wrong or immoral? No. Violence against them, denying them rights or otherwise persecuting them? Yes.

Condemnation of later is not hypocritical in the least.
condemnation is not violence, or persecution, it is the expression of disapproval. No one is talking about people who commit violent acts against people because of their behavior.

What is your definition of tolerance?
 
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rosewaning

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from here:

Many people are confused about what tolerance is. According to Webster's New World Dictionary, Second College Edition, the word tolerate means to allow or to permit, to recognize and respect others' beliefs and practices without sharing them, to bear or put up with someone or something not necessarily liked.

Tolerance, then, involves three elements: (1) permitting or allowing (2) a conduct or point of view one disagrees with (3) while respecting the person in the process.

Notice that we can't tolerate someone unless we disagree with him. This is critical. We don't "tolerate" people who share our views. They're on our side. There's nothing to put up with. Tolerance is reserved for those we think are wrong.

This essential element of tolerance--disagreement--has been completely lost in the modern distortion of the concept. Nowadays, if you think someone is wrong, you're called intolerant.

This presents a curious problem. One must first think another is wrong in order to exercise tolerance toward him, yet doing so brings the accusation of intolerance. It's a "Catch-22." According to this approach, true tolerance is impossible.

Adding to the confusion is the fact that tolerance could apply to different things--persons, behaviors, or ideas--and the rules are different for each.

Tolerance of persons, what might be called "civility," can be equated with the word "respect." This is the classical definition of tolerance: the freedom to express one's ideas without fear of reprisal.

We respect those who hold different beliefs than our own by treating them courteously and allowing their views a place in the public discourse. We may strongly disagree with their ideas and vigorously contend against them in the public square, but we still show respect for the persons in spite of the differences.

Note that respect is accorded to the person, here. Whether his behavior should be tolerated is an entirely different issue. This is the second sense of tolerance, the liberty to act, called tolerance of behavior. Our laws demonstrate that a man may believe what he likes--and he usually has the liberty to express those beliefs--but he may not behave as he likes. Some behavior is immoral or a threat to the common good. Rather than being tolerated, it is restricted by law. In Lincoln's words: There is no right to do wrong.

Tolerance of persons must also be distinguished from tolerance of ideas. Tolerance of persons requires that each person's views get a courteous hearing, not that all views have equal worth, merit, or truth. The view that no person's ideas are any better or truer than another's is irrational and absurd. To argue that some views are false, immoral, or just plain silly does not violate any meaningful standard of tolerance.

These three categories are frequently conflated by muddled thinkers. If one rejects another's ideas or behavior, he's automatically accused of rejecting the person and being disrespectful. To say I'm intolerant of the person because I disagree with his ideas is confused. On this view of tolerance, no idea or behavior can be opposed, regardless of how graciously, without inviting the charge of incivility.

Historically, our culture has emphasized tolerance of all persons, but never tolerance of all behavior. This is a critical distinction because, in the current rhetoric of relativism, the concept of tolerance is most frequently advocated for behavior: premarital sex, abortion, homosexuality, use of pornography, etc. People ought to be able to behave the way they want within broad moral limits, the argument goes.

Ironically, though, there is little tolerance for the expression of contrary ideas on issues of morality and religion. If one advocates a differing view, he is soundly censured. The tolerance issue has thus gone topsy-turvy: tolerate most behavior, but don't tolerate opposing beliefs about those behaviors. Contrary moral opinions are labeled as "imposing your view on others."

Instead of hearing, "I respect your view," those who differ in politically incorrect ways are told they are bigoted, narrow-minded, and intolerant.

Most of what passes for tolerance today is not tolerance at all, but rather intellectual cowardice. Those who hide behind the myth of neutrality are often afraid of intelligent engagement. Unwilling to be challenged by alternate points of view, they don't engage contrary opinions or even consider them. It's easier to hurl an insult--"you intolerant bigot"--than to confront the idea and either refute it or be changed by it. "Tolerance" has become intolerance.

The classical rule of tolerance is this: Tolerate persons in all circumstances, by according them respect and courtesy even when their ideas are false or silly. Tolerate (i.e., allow) behavior that is moral and consistent with the common good. Finally, tolerate (i.e., embrace and believe) ideas that are sound. This is still a good guideline.
 
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Spherical Time

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I think the problem most of us have with those that condemn is that they vote. Therefore, they aren't "tolerating" under rose's rather long and (IMO) tortured definition.

I don't vote against the Christian lifestyle, despite the disgust engendered by so many of the Christians here at CF. That's tolerance, even by the rose's definition.
 
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GabbyCat

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No condemning of homophobes&#8230;there is however confronting people about their prejudice and hate of homosexuals. That confrontation is no different from confronting people who advocate discrimination based on skin color or religion.


Would you try to call a person confronting a racist closed mined?
Why not?
why are you trying to do that very thing here?
 
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KarateCowboy

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I agree with Vylo. People who condemn "tolerance" for not being tolerant of intolerance don't understand the point of tolerance.

There isn't any good way to phrase that to make more sense.
But to them it isn't being intolerant, it's standing up for what is right. So if you disagree then to be tolerant would be to say "I disagree, but I'll tolerate it". So to condemn people you disagree with as 'intolerant' is intolerant.
 
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WalkingforHim

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But to them it isn't being intolerant, it's standing up for what is right. So if you disagree then to be tolerant would be to say "I disagree, but I'll tolerate it". So to condemn people you disagree with as 'intolerant' is intolerant.

But they are being intolerant, even if they think they are just standing up for what's right, which is overused and essentially meaningless saying. Hell, I'm sure the Nazi thought they were just "standing up for what's right" by putting the Jews, who they really and truely believed to be bad people, in ovens.
 
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Beanieboy

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There was something called "Safe Space" created for schools where the students were gay/lesbian/bisexual and to be able to come to and discuss struggles they have had. Often, it dealt with enduring emotional and often physical abuse from other students.

The school would then say, "The only thing that I don't tolerate is intollerance."

A conservative christian blog then went off on how hypocritical it is to not tolerate intolerance.

I would ask: "So, you support students being harrassed because they are gay? Threatened? Mocked? You approve of that behavior?"

They would be caught - to say no meant, to them, that they endorsed homosexuality, but to say yes meant that they endorsed abusive behavior.

I tolerate people's right to believe that homosexuality is a sin. I do not tolerate someone's belief that they think homosexuals should be executed, as listed in Lev., prevent civil rights of gays/lesbians, or any action that is purposefully harmful and hateful under the guise of "the bible says."

But my biggest problem with it is that homosexuals are the main focus of christians. Do they talk about whether people having premarital sex should be allowed to attend church? No. People who divorce and remarry, living a adulterous "lifestyle"? No. Do they tolerate other religions, that choose not to worship Jesus? Yes. Do they freely allow them to work at jobs, worship in their own temples/mosques, and raise children who will probably grow up to worship the same as their parents? Yes.

It's just homosexuality and abortion, and personally, I don't like being the political football.
 
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Condemnation by it's very nature is intolerrant and not what we're called to do. Aren't we told not to judge others? And isn't the power to condemn God's alone?

I believe we are primarily called to show God's love to the world around us. And I believe that means not shunning/harming/ignoring them just because they do something we may find wrong. They are free to do what they will, and while we can advise them and make suggestions for their life, it's up to them to take it and apply it.

I think we should focus on living our life right, letting out lives be our testimony, our way of reaching those we believe are lost.
 
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Texas Lynn

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I accept the fact that there are homosexuals and homosexual activity in the world. I accept the fact that these people and actions will be happening in the world with or without my blessing. I believe they're wrong. When asked, I say I believe they're wrong. I try to be pleasant about the subject, and don't scream, hurt or malign these people, nor do I try to tell them not to speak.

Am I intolerant? Maybe. Are those who wish to silence me intolerant of my views? I think so.

I wouldn't necessarily wish to "silence" you but I would say you do not have the right to express such views and then expect to be free of criticism. What some are calling "condemnation" is merely criticism.
 
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SallyNow

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So people are always saying that normal people like Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Japanese, Africans, etc are closed minded for condemning homosexuality. The premise, I believe, is that we are supposed to 'be tolerant' of people who we think are poisoning society with hideous immorality.

I think there things much more "immoral" than two adults choosing to have non-violent intercourse. For instance, abusing humans in the name of "low prices", poisoning water in the name of "industry", denying medical care in the name of "capitalism"...

Now, the very same people think that we are actually poisoning society with 'intolerance' by standing up for morality, yet the virtue of practicing that same tolerance is conveniently forgotten when they are the ones pointing the fingers. The whole 'One rule for us, and another rule for you' thing.

If someone doesn't want to watch a Gay Pride Parade, or doesn't like to see two men or two woman kissing, I do not think they are poisoning society at all. However, if someone yells rude things at two men kissing, or if a parent disinherets and kicks out their underage child because they are homosexual, or lobbies to make it illegal for a gay person to have or take of a child, then, yes, they are poisoning society.

So, is this hypocritical/closed minded?

No. Let's say two of my friends have had some sort of tragedy happen, and they both are getting in a fight. The fight turns physical. I pull one into a bear hug and gently lead him out of the room. Am I being "hypocritical" because I used physical force to stop physical violence? Of course not.

I do not agree with a person who passivly disagrees with homosexual behavior, but I'm not going to hate them for it. What good does that do? But I am going to be "intolerant" of people who activly hate homosexuals, just as I am "intolerant" of those who discriminate against, say, people of different ethnicities.
 
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Vylo

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So to condemn people you disagree with as 'intolerant' is intolerant.

Being intolerant of intolerance is not hypocritical, it is standing up to intolerance. It would be like saying arresting a hostage taker is hypocritical because you are holding him against his will.

It seems perhaps we are getting a bit confused here as to definitions, between condemnation, tolerance, and acceptance.

Condemnation can come in many forms, as indeed tolerance and acceptance can be be defined diferent.

Tolerance does not require acceptance. Tolerance is that you allow a group of people or a view point to exist. You tolerate their existance. You don't commit acts of violence against them, you don't persecute them or oppress them. Tolerance does not require you to accept that they are right, and in fact you can be quite vocal about how you feel they are wrong.

So if you are condemning people in a way that breaches tolerance, there is no hyprocrisy in condemning it in any form.

If you are speaking of condemning them in ways that do not, it simply becomes a difference of opinion if people feel similarly towards your condemnation.

If someone is intolerant of you do to your non-acceptance, then yes, that would be hypocritical.
 
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Robinsegg

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I wouldn't necessarily wish to "silence" you but I would say you do not have the right to express such views and then expect to be free of criticism. What some are calling "condemnation" is merely criticism.
I'll go along with that. As I said, I don't physically harm or in any way badger these people. When asked, I give my belief. I treat them with courtesy and expect the same back from them. Disagreement is not discourtesy.

Rachel
 
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