Concerning Saints

[Starcomet]

Catholic and Orthodox Christianity canonizes different virtuous and holy people as Saints. Protestanism has rejected Saints as a Catholic/Orthodox invention. What I would like to discuss is Saints in general. I believe in Saints unlike Protestants but unlike some Catholics/Orthodox I believe all people can become Saints and do not need to go through an official system of canonization or have to be Christian.

What is everyone's view concerning Saints? For those Catholics and Orthodox I ask why is it that only Christians can be Saints and great Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc wise men/women and healers are not recognized as Saints? For other Protestants I ask why is it that you reject Saints?

 

[jckstraw72]

to be a Saint is to be Christ-like, which requires Christ

 

[Mark_Sam]

In the Lutheran tradition, we don't reject saints. All Christians (dead and living) are concidered as saints. Actually, all Christians are concidered "simul justus et peccator" (saint and sinner at the same time). Of course, some are more saint than sinner, and the other way around.

We should thank God for what grace He has shown to us through His servants, and we should follow their example and imitate them. We also take it for granted that the dead saints pray for the Church (as they did when they were alive), but we don't pray to them, since "the Scripture teaches not the invocation of saints or to ask help of saints, since it sets before us the one Christ as the Mediator, Propitiation, High Priest, and Intercessor." (Augsburg Confession, Article XXI).

 

[Incariol]

Catholic and Orthodox Christianity canonizes different virtuous and holy people as Saints. Protestanism has rejected Saints as a Catholic/Orthodox invention. What I would like to discuss is Saints in general. I believe in Saints unlike Protestants but unlike some Catholics/Orthodox I believe all people can become Saints and do not need to go through an official system of canonization or have to be Christian.

What is everyone's view concerning Saints? For those Catholics and Orthodox I ask why is it that only Christians can be Saints and great Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc wise men/women and healers are not recognized as Saints? For other Protestants I ask why is it that you reject Saints?

How would people who are not united to God become Saints? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Starcomet]

How would people who are not united to God become Saints? That doesn't make sense.

I never said that a person does not have to be united with God to be a Siant. Actually, a person must be united with God through mind and spirit to become a Saint. I just do not believe this is limited only to Christians and the dead is all.

 

[Mark_Sam]

I never said that a person does not have to be united with God to be a Siant. Actually, a person must be united with God through mind and spirit to become a Saint. I just do not believe this is limited only to Christians and the dead is all.

Then you disagree with the Catholic and Orthodox definition of "saint".

 

[Starcomet]

Then you disagree with the Catholic and Orthodox definition of "saint".

Yes, as I stated in my original post.

 

[Bryne]

Well...you said that...but I don't think you had the Catholic and Orthodox definition correct.

The official canonization process isn't for people to become saints, but for the church to recognize that they are saints. Anyone who is in heaven with God is a saint. (Catholics...please correct me if I am wrong).

I am not sure how a non-Christian could be considered a saint. You would have to radically change what a saint is...because according to the Bible, a saint is simply someone is a Christian.

 

[Starcomet]

Well...you said that...but I don't think you had the Catholic and Orthodox definition correct.

The official canonization process isn't for people to become saints, but for the church to recognize that they are saints. Anyone who is in heaven with God is a saint. (Catholics...please correct me if I am wrong).

I am not sure how a non-Christian could be considered a saint. You would have to radically change what a saint is...because according to the Bible, a saint is simply someone is a Christian.

According to Paul in his epitsles yes, but a saint is anyone who is holy and virtuous. Aaron in the Hebrew testament was called a saint yet he was not a Christian. "They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the LORD." Psalm 106:16 And in Judaism there is the term Tzadik which is used for certain righteous persons. In Islam the term for a saint is Wali. To say only Christians can be saints or righteous, virtuous, holy is rather arrogant in my opinion.

 

[Bryne]

Aaron was a believer...a saint is a believer.

What makes a person a saint isn't that they are righteous, virtuous or holy...what makes a person a saint is that they are believer...OT saints weren't Christians, per se, but they were believers.

A person doesn't become a saint by being righteous.

 

[Starcomet]

Aaron was a believer...a saint is a believer.

What makes a person a saint isn't that they are righteous, virtuous or holy...what makes a person a saint is that they are believer...OT saints weren't Christians, per se, but they were believers.

A person doesn't become a saint by being righteous.

If they are holy then they are believers. And by your definition any person who believes can become a saint which is not entirely true either. You can be a big believer but unless you live the life of a believer then you cannot become one. And there is a difference between being a believer and living the life of one.

 

[Bryne]

And by your definition any person who believes can become a saint...

That is exactly what I am saying...or more to the point, any person who truly believes IS a saint.

You can be a big believer but unless you live the life of a believer then you cannot become one.

If you are a true believer, then you ARE a saint...you become a saint by becoming a believer.

We obviously have completely different definitions of "saint". I am going by the biblical definition.

 

[Starcomet]

That is exactly what I am saying...or more to the point, any person who truly believes IS a saint.

If you are a true believer, then you ARE a saint...you become a saint by becoming a believer.

We obviously have completely different definitions of "saint". I am going by the biblical definition.

Again, you cannot be a "saint" just because you are a believer. A drug dealer can be a believer but can we say that they are a saint? A murderer can be a believer but are they a saint? Your average person on the street can be a believer but that does not make them an automatic saint. Just because you believe in God and follow Jesus, Moses, Buddha, etc does not make you a saint. It simply makes you a believer.

 

[Bryne]

Again, you cannot be a "saint" just because you are a believer. A drug dealer can be a believer but can we say that they are a saint?

yes

A murderer can be a believer but are they a saint?

yes

Your average person on the street can be a believer but that does not make them an automatic saint.

Yes...it does.

Just because you believe in God and follow Jesus, Moses, Buddha, etc does not make you a saint. It simply makes you a believer.

By believer, I mean believer in Christ...not a follower of Moses or Buddha...

And yes...

 

[Bryne]

From Saint - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Christian usage, "saint" refers to any believer who is "in Christ", and in whom Christ dwells, whether in heaven or in earth

From the Wycliffe Bible Encylopedia:

"Christians in general are 'saints' in NT usage, and the term is common in reference to the inclusive membership of a local church . . . Other references in the NT equate Christians in general with 'saints' . . . All these are identified as saints because they are in Christ Jesus."

 

[E.C.]

We are all saints, but not all of us are Saints. Just like we're all baseball players, but not all of us are Babe Ruth.

To be recognized as a Saint in the Orthodox Church takes a bit of time and unlike Catholicism, veneration of said Saint begins with the laity. After some time the laity can request their Synod of bishops to begin an investigation of sorts if the person is truly a Saint or not. There is no required number of miracles, but the exact process down to the nuts and bolts details are not something that I know.

Sometimes a person's Sainthood is anticipated due to their life in which case, it does not take as long. For example, St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco was canonized a Saint in 1993, and died in 1967 (could have been '66-can't recall at this exact moment). The reason why it did not take long was quite simple: his holiness while alive was well known and immediately recognized by almost all those who met or knew him.

 

[Mark_Sam]

Do the Orthodox Church have different "degrees" of Sainthood, like the RCC (Servant of God, Venerable, Blessed, Saint)?

 

[Tim Myers]

If we all were saints, we would be playing in St. Paul.......

 

[Incariol]

I never said that a person does not have to be united with God to be a Siant. Actually, a person must be united with God through mind and spirit to become a Saint. I just do not believe this is limited only to Christians and the dead is all.

*shrugs* I'm sorry you feel that way.

"Dicit ei Iesus ego sum via et veritas et vita nemo venit ad Patrem nisi per me." --John 14:6

 

[E.C.]

Do the Orthodox Church have different "degrees" of Sainthood, like the RCC (Servant of God, Venerable, Blessed, Saint)?

Degrees, no. Titles, yes. Remember; we are all saints, but the Babe Ruth's of the bunch are recognized as Saints.
Although some of those who are not yet officially recognized are sometimes called "Blessed". An example is Fr. Seraphim (Rose) of Platina who reposed in the 1980s. Though he is not yet officially recognized as a Saint, much of the laity and clergy believe that he shall be at some time and may refer to him as "Blessed Seraphim Rose".

Martyrs, heiromartyrs, confessors, fools-for-Christ, Equals of the Apostles, myrrh-gusher, right-believing, etc; are all titles for saints which can give you a good idea of what the saint did and whom he/she was.