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Opinions vary. I believe there was a study in 2002 concluding that 1/3 of all Adventists have questions about the IJ interpretation. This is from memory - I could be wrong.Hey guys,
I've been here over 1 year and have frequented the prog forums but I still don't entirely understand your position on this topic other than you reject it. I'm not wishing to start a debate or anything. I'm just curious what most of you believe.
So concerning 1844 and the investigative judgment, specifically what do you find unbiblical about it? Also, if the IJ is false, exactly what DID happen in 1844? Or do you believe that time prophecy to be falsely interpreted from the beginning?
P.S. please don't answer questions in questions.As I said, I'm honestly not trying to debate anyone. I'm just curious about your thoughts on this.
God bless
Andrew
Hey guys,
I've been here over 1 year and have frequented the prog forums but I still don't entirely understand your position on this topic other than you reject it. I'm not wishing to start a debate or anything. I'm just curious what most of you believe.
So concerning 1844 and the investigative judgment, specifically what do you find unbiblical about it? Also, if the IJ is false, exactly what DID happen in 1844? Or do you believe that time prophecy to be falsely interpreted from the beginning?
P.S. please don't answer questions in questions.As I said, I'm honestly not trying to debate anyone. I'm just curious about your thoughts on this.
God bless
Andrew
Hey guys,
I've been here over 1 year and have frequented the prog forums but I still don't entirely understand your position on this topic other than you reject it. I'm not wishing to start a debate or anything. I'm just curious what most of you believe.
So concerning 1844 and the investigative judgment, specifically what do you find unbiblical about it? Also, if the IJ is false, exactly what DID happen in 1844? Or do you believe that time prophecy to be falsely interpreted from the beginning?
P.S. please don't answer questions in questions.As I said, I'm honestly not trying to debate anyone. I'm just curious about your thoughts on this.
God bless
Andrew
I find Biblical basis for the following teachings on the investigative judgment:
(1) Christ's judgment precedes His second coming (Dan 7:22, 2Cor 5:10, Rev 22 "My reward is with me")
(2) Future Justification will one day hinge upon what we have done (the good fruit of the good tree) as Christ states in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord lord ... but he who DOES...".
Rom 2:13-16 "Not the hearers of the Law are Just before God but the doers of the Law WILL BE justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge"
(3) Man's probation closes prior to Christ's second coming and Christ will cease to intercede for man once probation closes (see Rev 15:7-8)
Man must "sin not" as John says in 1John 2:1 when the high priestly role of Christ as Mediator in the sanctuary in heaven ends.
(4)Man forms character when "by the Spirit he puts to death the deeds of the flesh" Rom 8:13-16. This is the work that is done via the new creation - new nature -- new heart in cooperation with the Holy Spirit.
It is no longer I who live but CHRIST who lives in me and the life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God Gal 2:20.
(5)The year day principle used by almost every evangelical and protestant denomination working with the 490 day 70 week prophecy of Dan 9 -- is also used by SDAs not only in Dan 9 but also in Dan 8 and Dan 7.
It depends entirely on what you plan to do with it. Care to share your intentions with us?Do you mind if I "borrow" it??
In Daniel 7:22, judgment is simultaneous with the coming of the Ancient of Days and with the saints taking possession of the kingdom.(1) Christ's judgment precedes His second coming
What is the kingdom of Heaven? Please conduct a search of every reference to this phrase. The kingdom of Heaven is not solely something we wait for.(2) Future Justification will one day hinge upon what we have done (the good fruit of the good tree) as Christ states in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord lord ... but he who DOES...".
Yes, Romans 2 relates to men passing judgment on one another, and God’s judgment against those who do. It does not indicate that future justification will hinge on what we have done. Rather, Scripture teaches the following:Rom 2:13-16 "Not the hearers of the Law are Just before God but the doers of the Law WILL BE justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge"
Note that Romans 15:7-8 says nothing about man’s probation closing or about Christ interceding for man.(3) Man's probation closes prior to Christ's second coming and Christ will cease to intercede for man once probation closes
No. This is the Spirit forming the character. In contrast, the SDA denomination teaches that it is left with man to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement.(4)Man forms character when "by the Spirit he puts to death the deeds of the flesh" Rom 8:13-16.
Please provide the passage that confirms that sanctification results from man cooperating with the Spirit.This is the work that is done via the new creation - new nature -- new heart in cooperation with the Holy Spirit.
Exactly. In contrast, the SDA denomination teaches that, although God gives the talents, the powers of the mind, we form the character; that it is formed by hard stern battles with self; that conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies; that we will have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain. This is hardly a reliance on Christ living in me. This is a reliance on that which I can do myself.It is no longer I who live but CHRIST who lives in me and the life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God Gal 2:20.
This is not, in fact, true. Please conduct further research regarding the way in which non-SDA theologians view the year-day principle. Although there are some who accept it, the vast majority reject it as an unsound method of understanding prophetic books of the Bible.(5)The year day principle used by almost every evangelical and protestant denomination working with the 490 day 70 week prophecy of Dan 9 -- is also used by SDAs not only in Dan 9 but also in Dan 8 and Dan 7.
Hey guys,
So concerning 1844 and the investigative judgment, specifically what do you find unbiblical about it?
Also, if the IJ is false, exactly what DID happen in 1844? Or do you believe that time prophecy to be falsely interpreted from the beginning?
I see two main objections to the view and a number of smaller objections.
Here is a 19 page treatment of one of my objections. The simple version is that Jesus fulfilled the Day of Atonement entry and presentation of the sacrifice back at His ascension.
http://ankite.homestead.com/files/Hebews9.pdf
<< Bob said; Do you mind if I "borrow" it??>.
It depends entirely on what you plan to do with it. Care to share your intentions with us?
Bob said
(1) Christ's judgment precedes His second coming (Dan 7:22 and Rev 22 "My reward is with me"
In Daniel 7:22, judgment is simultaneous with the coming of the Ancient of Days and with the saints taking possession of the kingdom.
.
In 2 Corinthians 5:8, judgment is connected with being at home with the Lord.
So far, what we have seen is that the judgment takes place at Christs second coming.
Yes, Romans 2 relates to men passing judgment on one another, and God’s judgment against those who do.
It does not indicate that future justification will hinge on what we have done
. Rather, Scripture teaches the following:
“He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” Titus 3:5.
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears our word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24
“All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.” Galatians 3:10-14
“For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. ” Rom. 7:5-6
3) Man's probation closes prior to Christ's second coming and Christ will cease to intercede for man once probation closes (see Rev 15:7-8)
Man must "sin not" as John says in 1John 2:1 when the high priestly role of Christ as Mediator in the sanctuary in heaven ends.
Note that Romans 15:7-8 says nothing about mans probation closing or about Christ interceding for man.
Further, 1 John 2:1 does not say that man will be able to "sin not" prior to Christs second coming.
BFA
Not only are these SDA teachings not based on Scripture, they directly contradict Scripture. Christs final parting words before He left this world to return to His Father were as follows: Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world (Matt. 28:20). Consider also the following: I will not leave you comfortless (John 14:18). I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee (Hebrews 13:5).
Bob said
(4)Man forms character when "by the Spirit he puts to death the deeds of the flesh" Rom 8:13-16. This is the work that is done via the new creation - new nature -- new heart in cooperation with the Holy Spirit.
It is no longer I who live but CHRIST who lives in me and the life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God Gal 2:20.
BFA
No. This is the Spirit forming the character.
Romans 8 already given. "IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh THEN are you the sons of God"Please provide the passage that confirms that sanctification results from man cooperating with the Spirit.
Exactly. In contrast, the SDA denomination teaches that, although God gives the talents, the powers of the mind, we form the character; that it is formed by hard stern battles with self; that conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies; that we will have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain. This is hardly a reliance on Christ living in me. This is a reliance on that which I can do myself.
Well not in Dan 7.
In Dan 7:9 The "Ancient of Days takes His seat"
In Dan 7:10 the "Court sat" (myriads and myriads)
In Dan 7:10 the "books are opened"
In Dan 7:7-11, 21 the little horn "wages war with the saints" for a period of 1260 years vs 25-26 UNTIL the court sits AND a decision is rendered.
In Dan Dan 7:22 "UNTIL judgment is passed in favor of the saints"
And in Dan 7:13-14 the Son of Man comes to the Ancient of Days to receive his kingdom - once the decision is rendered
This demonstrates that the judgment is "from books" that it is "pre-advent" and that it happens AFTER the split of pagan Rome and before the 2nd coming AND that the saints are the subject of that judgment.
Hint "We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" as Paul argues for a judgment that he says is "still future" in Romans 2:13-16.
In Rev 14 the first angel tells us that the judgment takes place while both good and evil people are on earth and before the Rev 19 second coming event.
in Christ,
Bob.
No spin and no paraphrase. In fact, it's almost a direct quote:Interesting spin and paraphrase.
He also writes that there there is no one righteous, not even one; that the whole world is a prisoner of sin; and that the corruptible does not put on incorruption until the trump of God. Clearly, he understands the chronology.He says "these things I write to you that you sin not"... pretty hard to ignore.
It really is quite simple. The SDA denomination teaches that Christ will cease to intercede on behalf of men. Christ Himself promised that He would never cease to intercede for us. Whom should we believe?The Rev 15 argument is not that "Christ leaves us" it is not that "we are without the comforter" -- rather it is that the 1John 2:2 "Advocate" role has ended.
That is a good reference for "justification past" as Paul describes it in Romans 5:1 "having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE pass with God".
The argument for the IJ is NOT "you are not saved until the IJ takes place" -- notice that in the Lev 16 model -- the people had already received forgiveness back when they sinned (Lev 4 and 5) at various points during the year.
We are talking about future judgment in Romans 2 and Dan 7 where the Matt 7 principle of Christ "By their fruits you shall know them... not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father" is being applied with the Dan 7 result "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints".
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