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Conception of Mary

jackmt

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virgin mary was concieved by St. Anna and St. Jochiachim from a long list of descendants in the NT genealogy of Jesus.

Catholic tradiion gives Anna or some form thereof to Mary's mother because Mary's response to the angel's message harkened back to Hannah's response to God opening her womb in I Samuel 2. 'Anna' is a Latin form of the Hebrew 'Hannah,' both meaning "grace."
 
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ptomwebster

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Not really. The NT genealogies go through Joseph, not Mary...so Joachim and Anna are not mentioned.


No, Matthew's genealogy of Christ is through Joseph's side (Christ's step-father). The only segnificants of the Matthew geneology is to give the reason for Joseph going to Bethlehem to pay the tax. The genealogy in Luke is Mary's side through her father Heli.
 
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Kristos

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No, Matthew's genealogy of Christ is through Joseph's side (Christ's step-father). The only segnificants of the Matthew geneology is to give the reason for Joseph going to Bethlehem to pay the tax. The genealogy in Luke is Mary's side through her father Heli.

No, Mary's father was Joachim. They both go through Joseph. If Matthew's only purpose for the tax, then he would have stopped at David, which he didn't, so that is obviously not his only purpose, and probably not even his main purpose.
 
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ptomwebster

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No, Mary's father was Joachim. They both go through Joseph. If Matthew's only purpose for the tax, then he would have stopped at David, which he didn't, so that is obviously not his only purpose, and probably not even his main purpose.


I disagree, Heli is Mary’s father. Joseph is not in the lineage of Christ; Joseph was not the father of Christ. The genealogy in Matthew is different than the genealogy in Luke. Sorry!


Mary was of both the tribes of Judah (the King line) and the tribe of Levi (the priest line).
 
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Incariol

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ptomwebster said:
I disagree, Heli is Mary’s father. Joseph is not in the lineage of Christ; Joseph was not the father of Christ. The genealogy in Matthew is different than the genealogy in Luke. Sorry!

No, heli is from Luke 3:23 and is St. Joseph's father. The Theotokos' father is St. Joachim.
 
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Kristos

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I disagree, Heli is Mary’s father. Joseph is not in the lineage of Christ; Joseph was not the father of Christ. The genealogy in Matthew is different than the genealogy in Luke. Sorry!


Mary was of both the tribes of Judah (the King line) and the tribe of Levi (the priest line).

And what is your support for this view?
 
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ptomwebster

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And what is your support for this view?


Luke 1. Mary's mother and Elisabeth were sisters. Elisabeth was 100% of Levi so Mary's mother was also 100% Levite. Mary's father, Heli, was from Judah through David.



PS: I am in New Hope, MN
 
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Mark_Sam

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Why not both? I mean, people were known by many names in those times ... St. Peter was also known as Simon Peter, Cephas and Kepha; St. Mark was also known as John ... So maybe Heli and Joachim is the same person? Especially since the names might be related: "Heli" comes from "Eli" (Hebr. "ascension"), and "Joachim" from "Jehoiakim" (Hebr. "raised by YHWH"). That was my first thought on the subject.
 
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Kristos

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Luke 1. Mary's mother and Elisabeth were sisters. Elisabeth was 100% of Levi so Mary's mother was also 100% Levite. Mary's father, Heli, was from Judah through David.



PS: I am in New Hope, MN

Mary and Elizabeth were not sisters:

Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth

This could be translated kinsman or relative too, but definitely not sister, so they could not have the same mother.

Luk 3:23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,

Where is Mary mentioned? This geneology goes through Joseph - the supposed father (and legal father) of Jesus.
 
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Kristos

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Why not both? I mean, people were known by many names in those times ... St. Peter was also known as Simon Peter, Cephas and Kepha; St. Mark was also known as John ... So maybe Heli and Joachim is the same person? Especially since the names might be related: "Heli" comes from "Eli" (Hebr. "ascension"), and "Joachim" from "Jehoiakim" (Hebr. "raised by YHWH"). That was my first thought on the subject.

Because that is obviously not what it says. Luke's genealogy is through Joseph:

Luk 3:23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Janna-i, the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Nagga-i,
Luk 3:26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Seme-in, the son of Josech, the son of Joda,
Luk 3:27 the son of Jo-anan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of She-alti-el, the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,
Luk 3:29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31 the son of Mele-a, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David,
Luk 3:32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon,
Luk 3:33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah,
Luk 3:34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
Luk 3:35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah,
Luk 3:36 the son of Ca-inan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalale-el, the son of Ca-inan,
Luk 3:38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
 
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ptomwebster

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Mary and Elizabeth were not sisters:

Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth

This could be translated kinsman or relative too, but definitely not sister, so they could not have the same mother.

Luk 3:23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,

Where is Mary mentioned? This geneology goes through Joseph - the supposed father (and legal father) of Jesus.


I meant to say Mary's mother and Elisabeth were sisters.
 
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Standing Up

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I meant to say Mary's mother and Elisabeth were sisters.

In both Mt and Lk genealogies, both trace back to David, tribe of Judah.

But lets say Mary and Elisabeth were cousins. Their mothers (MM-Mary's mother and EM-Elisabeth's mother) were sisters. EM marries into Levi. But MM remains in Judah.

Point is, it doesn't change the geneologies. Joseph and Mary (and their parents) were of Judah. They trace back to David. Jesus was of Judah with no relationship to Levi.
 
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Kristos

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In both Mt and Lk genealogies, both trace back to David, tribe of Judah.

But lets say Mary and Elisabeth were cousins. Their mothers (MM-Mary's mother and EM-Elisabeth's mother) were sisters. EM marries into Levi. But MM remains in Judah.

Point is, it doesn't change the geneologies. Joseph and Mary (and their parents) were of Judah. They trace back to David. Jesus was of Judah with no relationship to Levi.

Why do you say Mary is of Judah? I'm not disagreeing, but where are you getting this from?
 
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ptomwebster

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In both Mt and Lk genealogies, both trace back to David, tribe of Judah.

But lets say Mary and Elisabeth were cousins. Their mothers (MM-Mary's mother and EM-Elisabeth's mother) were sisters. EM marries into Levi. But MM remains in Judah.

Point is, it doesn't change the geneologies. Joseph and Mary (and their parents) were of Judah. They trace back to David. Jesus was of Judah with no relationship to Levi.


Joseph has nothing to do with the genealogy of Christ. Joseph is NOT the father of Christ. 100% of Christ's human genealogy is through His mother, Mary.


Jesus Christ, Yeshua Hamashiach, is both Priest and King through Mary, His mother because Mary's father, Heli, was of the lineage of Judah. And Mary's mother was of the lineage of Levi. We know that because Mary and Elisabeth were cousins. Elisabeth was in the lineage of Levi. We know that because Zacharias was a Levitical priest of the course of Abia, working in the temple. He could not have married a woman that was not 100% of Levi. Elisabeth’s mother was also 100% Levite, Mary’s mother was 100% Levite. Mary and Elisabeth were cousins so their mothers were sisters. (Genealogy can get confusing but in the case of Christ it must fulfill prophecy.)
 
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