Concept of hell

[pharmacistRx25]

The concept of hell has always bothered me. The grinding and gnashing of teeth, the role I believe it was meant to play in the early church as a psychological tool to control the individual congragations. It wasn't necessarily the main reason why I became a weak atheist...I hate to blame it on just one thing...but it definitely made be approach the religion from a different angle.

For Christians...how do you justify hell? Either you accept the fact that the bible is not infallible and you run to the "hell is just a separation from god camp(which seems very popular lately), or you take the bible to be god breathed and hell is a painful place. If you believe hell is an eternal, painful damnation then how? How can a "spirit" which occupies no physical space, go to a place not of this universe which occupies no space (hell) and experience a nueron-to-brain type experience.

Any help would be great

 

[theVirginian]

How can a "spirit" which occupies no physical space, go to a place not of this universe which occupies no space (hell) and experience a nueron-to-brain type experience.

The physical realm was patterned after the supernatural realm. The human spirit (the real you) has the same senses as the physical body, but is sensitive only to supernatural influences. You can torture the physical body but the spirit won't feel a thing.

I'm assuming that you're referring to the lake of fire. It is a supernatural realm place and takes up space there, just as the city of Heaven has dimensions. Once you understand that there are two seperate realms that share some common charateristics, it gets a little easier to fathom.

 

[Criada]

Spiritual pain can be a s real as physical pain!

I do believe in a literal hell - the 'Lake of Fire' reffered to in the Bible. However, I do not believe in the eternal torment of humans. The Bible says that those who reject Christ will be thrown into the lake of fire - it says nothing of eternal torment except when referring specifically to satan, the beast and the false prophet (Revelation 21:10).

 

[tapero]

The concept of hell has always bothered me. The grinding and gnashing of teeth, the role I believe it was meant to play in the early church as a psychological tool to control the individual congragations. It wasn't necessarily the main reason why I became a weak atheist...I hate to blame it on just one thing...but it definitely made be approach the religion from a different angle.

For Christians...how do you justify hell? Either you accept the fact that the bible is not infallible and you run to the "hell is just a separation from god camp(which seems very popular lately), or you take the bible to be god breathed and hell is a painful place. If you believe hell is an eternal, painful damnation then how? How can a "spirit" which occupies no physical space, go to a place not of this universe which occupies no space (hell) and experience a nueron-to-brain type experience.

Any help would be great

Hi, speaking of hell is a very painful thing, as the bible says those without Christ will go there. Not talking about before Jesus' time; that's another thread.

But the bible is truth and so states about hell, and I can't think of any who take pleasure that there is hell. If they do, it is not right thinking.

Can't explain anything about what happens to non Christians as to whether they get a differnt body, not spoken, only says christians will recieve a new body.

If you think about it; for example, let's take someone with no illness, etc. who is now alive. Let's say somethng terrible happens to them. Very terrible. This effects who they are (their soul) not just their body.

second example
If it's verbal abuse, which is extremely painful the pain is caused to the person, the soul, though the body may also be affected due to stress and anguish etc.

So, again, not written if non Christians will recieve new body, but can see that we can suffer and deeply do on earth for stuff that happens to us now as it is.

Seems one doesn't need a body to suffer greatly in this world, tho we have one in this world. It is our soul, our person who is affected and our body if a phycial assualt as well.

We aren't told much about the anguish of hell, mainly that it will occur.

You say hell occupies no space. There is no proof of that, nor is their proof that heaven occupies no space.

I don't justify hell in any way. God says what will occur; he is the one who judges not us.

I don't want anyone to go to hell.

Hell indeed will be a separation from God as well as a painful place. However, one must bear in mind that God is in all and through all. He is infinite, there is no place anywhre he does not exist.

He doesn't give exhaustive answers on many of our questions in the bible, but we've got what we need to walk thru the valley of the shadow of death. Only with Christ could I walk thru this life, and I don't forget that I once didn't believe, but have no clue how I even existed prior to knowing Christ, but I did.

Blessings,
tapero

 

[pharmacistRx25]

How can a "spirit" which occupies no physical space, go to a place not of this universe which occupies no space (hell) and experience a nueron-to-brain type experience.

The physical realm was patterned after the supernatural realm. The human spirit (the real you) has the same senses as the physical body, but is sensitive only to supernatural influences. You can torture the physical body but the spirit won't feel a thing.

I'm assuming that you're referring to the lake of fire. It is a supernatural realm place and takes up space there, just as the city of Heaven has dimensions. Once you understand that there are two seperate realms that share some common charateristics, it gets a little easier to fathom.

I guess my problem would lay with your use of the word realm. I'm all about not enjoying dogma very much and the use of an existing "realm" seems awfully dogmatic. It could be possible that I missed those verses in the bible, but I think more likely that the idea of another realm sprung from using poetic liscense on one if not many verses.
For instance, I am sure you have heard recently that the Catholic church did away with their doctrine of "Limbo"...which was supposedly a place where babies not yet baptized went if they died. Surely 6 months ago if we had this discussion they would've used the same agruement you brought, that it is of another realm and beyond us to show evidence of it's existense. However, with a whisk of a pen they "Rearranged the netherworlds" if you will.
Now, Limbo worked for Catholics until they started sending missionaries to poor African countries where the infant mortality rate is extrememly high. The women over there were not very found of the idea and so it was done away with. I believe hell was created in much of the same vain. People willfully ignore the psychological and sociological effects that hell has in bringing people to christianity. It is an example of fear mounting reason.

 

[Criada]

I guess my problem would lay with your use of the word realm. I'm all about not enjoying dogma very much and the use of an existing "realm" seems awfully dogmatic. It could be possible that I missed those verses in the bible, but I think more likely that the idea of another realm sprung from using poetic liscense on one if not many verses.
For instance, I am sure you have heard recently that the Catholic church did away with their doctrine of "Limbo"...which was supposedly a place where babies not yet baptized went if they died. Surely 6 months ago if we had this discussion they would've used the same agruement you brought, that it is of another realm and beyond us to show evidence of it's existense. However, with a whisk of a pen they "Rearranged the netherworlds" if you will.
Now, Limbo worked for Catholics until they started sending missionaries to poor African countries where the infant mortality rate is extrememly high. The women over there were not very found of the idea and so it was done away with. I believe hell was created in much of the same vain. People willfully ignore the psychological and sociological effects that hell has in bringing people to christianity. It is an example of fear mounting reason.

I can only speak for myself, but fear of hell played no part in my becoming a Christian! And neither I nor any Christian I know would try to scare people into conversion!
Jesus is love - I became a Christian through a revelation of that love, and my decision would have been the same even without eternal consequences. I worship Him because I love Him. I love Him because He first loved me.
That is all - neither heaven nor hell make any difference to that!

 

[pharmacistRx25]

You say hell occupies no space. There is no proof of that, nor is their proof that heaven occupies no space.
If you're going to argue that hell exists in another realm as the first responder did then refer to my post on that. However, it seems as if you believe hell occupies space in this physical universe somewhere right? Then we get ourselves into "well, how do you get there?" It seems like a ridiculously simple question but give yourself an honest answer that is not "faith" or "god is god and I am not, he can do anything."

I don't justify hell in any way. God says what will occur; he is the one who judges not us.

And the jewish peoples say that there is no hell. Pope John Paull II said he believe hell was not a fire and brimstone type place but rather simply a separation from god.

I don't want anyone to go to hell.

Hell indeed will be a separation from God as well as a painful place.
Research 3 words, hades, sheol, and gehenna. If you can come to an honest revelation that these 3 words should've been converted to the word hell, and the fire and brimstone connotation they are awarded then you will be a stronger christian.

However, one must bear in mind that God is in all and through all. He is infinite, there is no place anywhre he does not exist.
He is not in unbelievers no? "Fill the whole in your heart with god"

He doesn't give exhaustive answers on many of our questions in the bible,
Which is exactly why you should not have blind faith and research these types of issues. I recommend Samuel Dawson. He is a christian theologian who wrote a great commentary on why we have missed the boat with the idea of hell. I'm sure if you googled his name you could find it.

 

[pharmacistRx25]

I can only speak for myself, but fear of hell played no part in my becoming a Christian! And neither I nor any Christian I know would try to scare people into conversion!
Jesus is love - I became a Christian through a revelation of that love, and my decision would have been the same even without eternal consequences. I worship Him because I love Him. I love Him because He first loved me.
That is all - neither heaven nor hell make any difference to that!

That's fantastic that you came to know your god through his love and everything. I'm honestly not being sarcastic, you sound like a true christian. But what about the 12th century serf who lived under a local monarch sent by the church? Why did they believe in a loving god who loved them first straight into poverty where they were treated like dirt? My answer would be that this painful concept of hell was simply a tool. I was once an evangelical christian and I know that sounds way out to left field to you. But when you allow yourself to delve into the history of the scribes (try the book Misquoting Jesus) you'll see that the bible you read today in english, no matter the version is a stark and almost sd misrepresentation of the original text.

 

[Criada]

That's fantastic that you came to know your god through his love and everything. I'm honestly not being sarcastic, you sound like a true christian. But what about the 12th century serf who lived under a local monarch sent by the church? Why did they believe in a loving god who loved them first straight into poverty where they were treated like dirt? My answer would be that this painful concept of hell was simply a tool. I was once an evangelical christian and I know that sounds way out to left field to you. But when you allow yourself to delve into the history of the scribes (try the book Misquoting Jesus) you'll see that the bible you read today in english, no matter the version is a stark and almost sd misrepresentation of the original text.

I actually agree with you that the accepted picture of hell is unbiblical, and owes more to medeival religious art than to scripture. Most people seem to see hell as a place where sinners are eternals tortured by satan and his minions. Whereas the Bible is clear that the lake of fire has been prepared specifically as a punishment for satan.
But then, I know Christians who think that they will turn into angels when they die..

Popular misconceptions are not a reason to reject Christianity - we are all wrong on some issues, I am sure.
And one day we will know the truth.
Until then, I can only work with the revelation that I have recieved, and try not to judge those who think differently.

 

[tapero]

You say hell occupies no space. There is no proof of that, nor is their proof that heaven occupies no space.

If you're going to argue that hell exists in another realm as the first responder did then refer to my post on that. However, it seems as if you believe hell occupies space in this physical universe somewhere right? Then we get ourselves into "well, how do you get there?" It seems like a ridiculously simple question but give yourself an honest answer that is not "faith" or "god is god and I am not, he can do anything."
hi, not sure i understand.. it is God that sends people to hell. So the answer to how does one get there, is God sends them there.
I don't justify hell in any way. God says what will occur; he is the one who judges not us.
And the jewish peoples say that there is no hell. Pope John Paull II said he believe hell was not a fire and brimstone type place but rather simply a separation from god.
That's nice, I'm neither Jewish, nor listen to the Pope.
I don't want anyone to go to hell.

Hell indeed will be a separation from God as well as a painful place.

Research 3 words, hades, sheol, and gehenna. If you can come to an honest revelation that these 3 words should've been converted to the word hell, and the fire and brimstone connotation they are awarded then you will be a stronger christian.

Know very well about the different words used and the scritpures and context associated with them and for what periods they were used in the bible.

However, one must bear in mind that God is in all and through all. He is infinite, there is no place anywhre he does not exist.

He is not in unbelievers no? "Fill the whole in your heart with god"
Is there any place that God does not exist? We all, everything there is or ever will be is all within God's being. God is infinite, there is no place that He is not. We live in his being, all things exist in Him.
He doesn't give exhaustive answers on many of our questions in the bible,

Which is exactly why you should not have blind faith and research these types of issues. I recommend Samuel Dawson. He is a christian theologian who wrote a great commentary on why we have missed the boat with the idea of hell. I'm sure if you googled his name you could find it.
I appreciate that, but have no need to read a book about hell. Don't think I've missed the boat, but what I think doesn't really matter.

.