Compatiblism

FaithfulPilgrim

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I am not fully committed to any soteriological system, but I am contemplating returning to Calvinism.

IIRC, Calvinism incorporates compatiblism, the view that a person has free will, but can only choose according to his nature. In theory, he could freely choose B instead, but because of his nature and the state of his heart, he will not. Is this a fair assessment?

Now, this is where the real question comes in. If a person can only choose based on his desires and nature, where exactly do his desires come from? What would make me choose A instead of B?
 

Widlast

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I am not fully committed to any soteriological system, but I am contemplating returning to Calvinism.

IIRC, Calvinism incorporates compatiblism, the view that a person has free will, but can only choose according to his nature. In theory, he could freely choose B instead, but because of his nature and the state of his heart, he will not. Is this a fair assessment?

Now, this is where the real question comes in. If a person can only choose based on his desires and nature, where exactly do his desires come from? What would make me choose A instead of B?
How can one make a free choice if their choice is predetermined? If, by birth, my nature is completely corrupt, in what way do I have the ability to choose? It is like God saying "sing and dance and you will be saved, but I must brake your legs and gag you first".
 
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jimmyjimmy

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How can one make a free choice if their choice is predetermined? If, by birth, my nature is completely corrupt, in what way do I have the ability to choose? It is like God saying "sing and dance and you will be saved, but I must brake your legs and gag you first".

It is like that, except we've broken our own legs.

God's demands do not change, in spite of the fact that we no longer have the ability to obey them. That's precisely why we need saving. We need Christ to do for us what we could not do for ourselves.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I am not fully committed to any soteriological system, but I am contemplating returning to Calvinism.

IIRC, Calvinism incorporates compatiblism, the view that a person has free will, but can only choose according to his nature. In theory, he could freely choose B instead, but because of his nature and the state of his heart, he will not. Is this a fair assessment?

Now, this is where the real question comes in. If a person can only choose based on his desires and nature, where exactly do his desires come from? What would make me choose A instead of B?

A man will always choose his greatest desire. Always. He will always do what he most wants to do most.

One may immediate object and say that if I man were held at gunpoint and asked to give up his money or die, he will give up his money, but he doesn't want to give up his money. He is forced to give up his money. While it is true that he doesn't want to give up his money, it is also true that he doesn't want to dies more than he doesn't want to give up his money. He does just what he wants to do. . .

So, if a man's nature is indeed changed because of the fall, if man is corrupted, and his desires are toward self and sin rather than toward God and righteousness, then he will always choose self and sin. He has no desire for God. In fact, he hides from God, just as A&E did in the Garden. Because man knows his guilt, and he has also claimed himself as god, he is not looking for the Living God anymore than a thief is looking for a cop.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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If a person can only choose based on his desires and nature, where exactly do his desires come from? What would make me choose A instead of B?

Both nature and nature impact these things. Would you choose to work in a coal mine in West Virginia if your father were a professor at Harvard? Probably not going to happen; however, what's less likely is that you end up a Harvard professor if you grew up in a hollow in West Virginia.

Your looks, height, voice, smile. . . everything directs and limits your choices. Your freedom is limited by multiple millions of factors.
 
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JM

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What Jimmy wrote as all truth.

"If a person can only choose based on his desires and nature, where exactly do his desires come from?"

We are given new desires when we are regenerated - regeneration takes place before faith.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Widlast

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It is like that, except we've broken our own legs.

God's demands do not change, in spite of the fact that we no longer have the ability to obey them. That's precisely why we need saving. We need Christ to do for us what we could not do for ourselves.
What you are missing is that "according to Calvinism" everyone is born with no options. They are unable to make right decisions due to their inborn depravity. According to that theology, their legs were broken before they ever took their first breath.
 
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JM

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What you are missing is that "according to Calvinism" everyone is born with no options. They are unable to make right decisions due to their inborn depravity. According to that theology, their legs were broken before they ever took their first breath.

That is simply not true. Everyone is born with free will just not libertarian free will. We are sinners by nature and by choice. According to Romanism one can overcome this fallen nature by accessing, legally, the sacraments. This is unbiblical and places too much emphasis on man.
 
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Widlast

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That is simply not true. Everyone is born with free will just not libertarian free will. We are sinners by nature and by choice. According to Romanism one can overcome this fallen nature by accessing, legally, the sacraments. This is unbiblical and places too much emphasis on man.
In your not particularly valid opinion.
 
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What you are missing is that "according to Calvinism" everyone is born with no options. They are unable to make right decisions due to their inborn depravity. According to that theology, their legs were broken before they ever took their first breath.

Remember when the Rich Young Ruler called Jesus "good teacher'?

Jesus pushed back because the young man thought that he was speaking to a prophet or wise and godly man. He had no idea that Jesus was King of Kings, yet he called Him, "good".

Jesus said it, and I'll repeat it, "No one is good except for God alone". We all are incapable of being good as defined by God, but we are free. We freely choose to suppress what light we do see (Romans 1:18) We freely sin and teach others to do the same even though we know what the penalty for this is (Romans 1:32)

We are not the source of righteousness. He is.
 
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JM

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In your not particularly valid opinion.

Sure - the biblical opinion is what really matters here...so, here goes…

“What are the doctrines of grace?”

The Doctrines of Grace, also known as Calvinism, are summarized as:

  1. T is for total depravity and inability of man to effect his own salvation.
  2. U is for unconditional or unlimited choice of God in election.
  3. L is for limited atonement.
  4. I is for irresistible grace.
  5. P is for the perseverance of the saints.
These “five points” are often called the Five Points of Calvinism but that is actually a misnomer. John Calvin did not write them and they were written only in response to the raise of Arminianism.

Does the Bible teach “Calvinism?” Before we get to scripture a little background.

Both Reformed Christians and other non-Reformed, Paptists or Arminian Christians love the word of God and seek to conform to the word in all matters of faith and practice. Both groups believe they are expressing biblical doctrine and faith. Often those who oppose what is called “Calvinism” will lay claim to being a “Biblicist.” In my experience this claim is made in the spirit of obstinacy, one that simply ignores the facts of profane history, and embraces a modernistic view of theology. The person holding to such views often does so with an air of superiority, as if the person making this claim has a completely biblical theology “untainted” by any theologian. Both the Calvinist and Arminian lay claim to the idea of Biblicism. Both systems of theology believe they are expressing the literal, historical, and grammatical meaning of scripture. It is a pejorative when someone fails to recognize their own theological leanings, and claim the Calvinist is not attempting to explain what the divine word teaches. You will notice that I use the term Arminian for Bible believing Christians that support ideas about free will and I often use both identifiers together (ex. Arminian free will, free will Arminianism, etc.). This is not a slight but a historical theological definition to the chagrin of the Post-Modernist mind. To help clear the air I’ve included some questions. Many of them are my own, some of them I worked on with friends and others I’ve picked up from forums when having discussions about such theological issues.

Do you believe that human nature was gravely affected by the fall of Adam, but that sinners have not been left powerlessness in spiritual matters and can choose to be saved?

Do you believe that God enables every sinner to repent and believe but does not override man’s freedom to do so?

Do you believe each sinner possesses a free will that they will use to decide their final destiny depending on how they uses it?
Do you believe the sinners free will enables them to choose good over evil in spiritual matters?

Do you believe the sinner has the power to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and be regenerated or refuse to accept God’s grace and perish?

Do you believe the lost sinner needs help from the Holy Spirit but does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit to believe? Or that faith is man’s act and precedes regeneration?

Do you believe that God’s choice in election is based on what He foresees?

Do you believe that some sinners would respond to the preaching of the Gospel and God therefore elects them unto salvation based on His knowledge of their choice? Or that God decided to elect only those who would believe the Gospel?

Do you believe election is ultimately determined by man’s faith foreseen by God from eternity past?

Do you believe that Christ’s saving work on the cross made it a possibility for everyone single person that has ever lived to be saved but did not really secure the salvation of anyone?

Do you believe that Christ died for all sinners but only those who believe on Him are saved?

Do you believe Christ’s death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe?

Do you believe that Christ’s death did not actually put away anyone’s sin but made salvation a possibility?

Do you believe that redemption becomes efficient only if man chooses to believe it?

If you have answered yes to any of the above questions you are probably closer to Arminianism than you first believed, even if you reject the name. The history of the free will movement among Protestants sits squarely within the Arminian framework. If you answer yes to most of the questions, face it, you are an Arminian.

Once it is understood that modern Evangelicalism has a tradition wedded to Arminianism the debate breaks down into monergism and synergism. The free will Arminian tradition is very similar to Roman Catholicism. In fact, Arminius like Philipp Melanchthon before him, softened the Protestant doctrine moving Lutherianism toward the Roman church. When I say Protestant I refer to Martin Luther, Huldrych Zwingli and John Calvin. All there Reformers held to what is now called “Calvinism.” This is a remarkable fact considering the Reformers lived in different geographical locations.

The Reformers and Bible believers before them were monergists. A monergist believes the Holy Spirit will act effectually bringing sinners to salvation by spiritual regeneration. This is done without the sinner acting as an accomplice or assisting God. From beginning to end the work belongs to God. A synergist on the other hand believes the sinner must cooperate (Christ + something, you fill in the blank, faith, sacraments, works, etc.) in the salvation process often inserting ideas like “prevenient grace” to help explain the inconsistencies. For the Arminian or Christian supporting libertarian free will, it is the act of the unregenerate sinner in believing that begins the process of salvation. One dictionary describe this view as, “two efficient agents [acting] in regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate.” This is the definition of modern Evangelism and is the hinge on which the discussion swings.

Do you believe a sinner must be saved purely by an act of God? or, Do you believe a sinner is saved by cooperating with the Holy Spirit? That is where we are today folks. We are discussing this very issue. Does the Bible teach that we are saved by God alone without any contribution made by the sinner? Or Does the Bible teach that we cooperate in the regeneration process? As we move forward I pray you take time to look up the passages cited and pray over them. It is important to read scripture as it is written and not fall to peer pressure, setting aside the Arminian comprise with Rome and let the Gospel of God’s free and unmerited grace wash over you. Let’s set aside our prejudices or bias, our traditions including American Evangelicalism or Reformed Calvinism and consider what scriptures teach.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ABOUT OUR SPIRITUAL STATE:

The Bible makes no bones about it; we are spiritually dead due to the sin of Adam, in whom we all sinned.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gen 2) (full treatment of this passage please see Faces of Death by Dr. Pipa)

Adam stood as our federal or covenant head before God so when he took of the fruit and sinned we sinned with him. God’s instructions to Adam were very simple, “do and live.” (For further explanation please see (The Proto-Evangelium)

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. (Psa 51:5)

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (Psa 58:3)

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (Joh 3:5-7)

Christ explains “that which is born of flesh is flesh.” The flesh can do nothing spiritual.

All humanity was in Adam covenantally.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Rom 5:12)

Notice that “by nature,” that is in our nature (“flesh is flesh”) state we were “children of wrath.” We were in a sinful state and fulfilled our own “desires of the flesh.”

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Eph 2:1-3)

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (Col 2:13)

God does the “quickening” or makes us alive, the actions of God are not subject to the creature, for He is all knowing and all powerful.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ABOUT OUR MINDS AND HEARTS:

Due to our sinful state described in the scriptures above, our minds and hearts are subject to the desires and lusts of the flesh.

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Gen 6:5)

And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. (Gen 8:21)

We find in the holy word of God that mankind’s “imagination and thoughts” are singularly evil. That is in opposition to good or spiritual.

Now, keep in mind what the New Covenant entails. It is a replacing of the stony heart with a living heart. (Jer. 31) Scripture is pretty clear that our heart is wickedly evil which is why we need a new heart and that heart is given when we are regenerated spiritually. This inherent wickedness means we must reply on Christ alone for every part of our salvation because Christ is “the author AND finisher of our faith.”

This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. (Ecc 9:3)

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jer 17:9)

We often like to kid ourselves by proclaiming that “I made a decision, I turned it around. Here I am Lord. Ain’t I something! You owe me Lord because I believed in you.” This is the pride of trusting in ones decision to believe and not believing upon Christ for salvation. The heart is wicked, Lord help us it is wicked! In us there is no good thing, that’s what the Bible teaches and because the Bible teaches we are not entitled to even the offer of salvation we must, we MUST trust in Christ alone for it all. That is what Calvin taught.

Jesus Christ our Lord and our only hope of salvation described our hearts so we could get a clear picture of what we are truly like.

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. (Mar 7:21-23)

If this is what we are truly like (“flesh is flesh”) how in the world do we get to a place where we can believe? We could come up with our own ideas but what does the Bible say? I’ll get to that. Keep in mind “flesh is flesh” and the words of Jesus Christ Himself about our nature and what we are capable or incapable of as we continue studying the word.

Jesus tells us why He is rejected, “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” (Joh 3:19) Folks, no one believes on their own steam. There is nothing in you that would allow you to choose on your own free will Jesus Christ.

Why is that?

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Rom 8:7-9)

Again, why can’t we who are in the flesh flesh choose Christ? Because spiritual things are “spiritually discerned.”

the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1Co 2:14)

The free will Arminian believes he can receive spiritual things before he is regenerated, that he can get by on his own and then, by his decision, will receive the new birth. (see also decisional regeneration)

Our lives after regeneration/being born again compared to what our lives were like in the flesh:

This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. (Eph 4:17-19)

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (Eph 5:8)

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. (Tit 1:15)

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ABOUT OUR BONDAGE TO SIN & SATAN:

Due to our fallen nature we need Christ for salvation. Not just to make salvation possible but to actually save us from our sinful selves. We need Christ for everything, for salvation and holinesds. His propitiatory work on the cross accomplished that. In the flesh we remain in bondage to sin and Satan and only Christ and Christ alone can free us.

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (Joh 8:34)

According to Strong’s the word servant means “a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): – bond (-man), servant.” Before we receive regeneration by the Holy Spirit we are slaves to sin and because our will is fall, not free, we sin wilfully. We want to sin. That is why Christ was rejected, “this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light,”

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (Joh 8:44)

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. (Rom 6:20)

The Bible clearly teaches that man is completely wicked, dead in sin and produces nothing good spiritually so God makes us alive even though we were “dead in trespasses and sins” and unable to see the error of our ways. That is the teaching of the Reformers.

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (Eph 2:1-2)

Our Triune God condescended to save us BECAUSE we have been taken captive by Satan and serve him willingly. We are sinners by nature and sinners by choice.

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. (2Ti 2:25-26)

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. (Tit 3:3)

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1Jn 3:10)

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. (1Jn 5:19)

That’s right folks, the WHOLE WORLD LIETH IN WICKEDNESS. Sin and wickedness is not something we can avoid being tainted with, it affects everything about us.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ABOUT THE UNIVERSAL SPREAD OF SIN:

The Bible teaches that each and everyone of us is in a state of total spiritual depravity making us unable to change.

If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near; (1Ki 8:46 see also 2 Cor. 6:36)

What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water? (Job 15:14-16)

The total spiritual depravity of mankind is universal. No one, not one of us, is free from the bondage of sin until the Holy Spirit makes us free.

If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near; (1Ki 8:46 see also 2 Chr. 6:36)

What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water? (Job 15:14-16)

If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? (Psa 130:3)

A rhetorical question is offered by the Psalmist and the answer is “no one.” The free will view teaches that anyone in the flesh can approach God by faith, without regeneration, and receive justification. This is simply untrue.

No one can seek to be justified while in the flesh. (“flesh is flesh”)

And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. (Psa 143:2)

Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin? (Pro 20:9)

For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. (Ecc 7:20)

Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. (Ecc 7:29)

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:6)

Again, we find that in the flesh we “have not heard” the spiritual offer of the Gospel. In the flesh we cannot perceive the preaching of the Gospel!

For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. (Isa 64:4)

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Rom 3:9-12)

For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. (Jas 3:2)

But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. (Jas 3:8)

The Bible describes sin in such a way that leaves us slaves to it and unable to even understand the Gospel, if we reject this biblical idea “we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” That’s how serious this biblical doctrine is. If you say, “I’m not as bad as the Bible teaches or he’s making me out to be” “we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” Thank God most who believe in free will do so inconsistently.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1Jn 1:8)

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1Jn)

I will post more in the near future. Gotta run.

jm
 
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twin1954

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Both nature and nature impact these things. Would you choose to work in a coal mine in West Virginia if your father were a professor at Harvard? Probably not going to happen; however, what's less likely is that you end up a Harvard professor if you grew up in a hollow in West Virginia.

Your looks, height, voice, smile. . . everything directs and limits your choices. Your freedom is limited by multiple millions of factors.
What is wrong with working in a coal mine in W. Va? I worked in a coal mine in W. Va.
 
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twin1954

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What you are missing is that "according to Calvinism" everyone is born with no options. They are unable to make right decisions due to their inborn depravity. According to that theology, their legs were broken before they ever took their first breath.
If you want to debate Calvinism there is a forum for that. This one is for Calvinists to answer honest questions.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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What is wrong with working in a coal mine in W. Va? I worked in a coal mine in W. Va.

Not a thing. Did I say something was wrong with it?

Were are of the fellows working with you in the mine graduates of Harvard?
 
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Pardoned Rebel
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Jan 2, 2015
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Presbyterian
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Married
It was when I was in my 20's. I was crazy then.

I was just joking with you.

I joke a lot here, and use sarcasm, but it's generally missed. In wish it would come across better in written word.
 
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