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Comparison grid on CARM

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Hoonbaba

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Hi guys,

I'm curious about the comparison grid on CARM.

http://www.carm.org/catholic/grid.htm

can someone briefly address the differences with the issues?

The only ones I'm confused about is the 'specific church leader on earth', 'sample of non-biblical teachings, and 'claim of authority'.

is the pope really a church leader on earth?  Or is the pope considered something else?  If anything isn't Christ and the pope working with Christ leaders on earth?

What about penance or indulgences?  Are those biblical?

And what about apostolic succession?  I that biblical too?  Actually I don't fully understand this altogether, yet.

God bless!

-Jason
 

isshinwhat

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Well, to the first I would say the Protestant faith puts each member as their own head of the Church on earth. Each person is free to read the Bible and decide for themselves what is says. Martin Luther said something about getting rid of one Pope, and at the same time creating a thousand more... something like that.

To the second objection, they got the Bible through Tradition. Not only that, but Paul says to hold on tightly to the Traditions which the Apostles taught, whether written or oral.

OK... to be honest I can't read any more of that tripe right now. Here is a link to Dave Armstrong's website. It is divided up into many parts, so it should be easy for you to look up the various topics. I only hope Matt Slick understands his own faith better than he understands mine.  If he wants to create some apostate boogeyman goddess-worshipping cult where he can have some Harlot from Revelations to make him feel good about himself, then so-be-it.  I wish he could differentiate between what we teach and believe and what he wants to believe we teach.  May God have mercy on us all...


God Bless,

Neal

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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The pope is the leader of the Church as a insitution. Of course, he like all Christians is subservient to Christ. All other churches have their leaders who make sure that the everyday workings of the church go well and to help guide the development of faith.

Penance comes from the time when Jesus sent his disciples to preach to the world. He told them that the things they forgave were forgiven and the things they held bound were held bound.

Apostolic succession says that the bishops, as successors of the Apostles, are caretakers of the Apostles' teachings, which they received from Christ. Since they will do a better job than I will, I will let those more knowledgable than I explain the Biblical aspects.

Also the site mentioned Catholics praying to Mary. This is wrong. Catholics ask the saints to pray for us in the same way we ask for fellow parishoners to pray for us.
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
Well, to the first I would say the Protestant faith puts each member as their own head of the Church on earth. Each person is free to read the Bible and decide for themselves what is says. Martin Luther said something about getting rid of one Pope, and at the same time creating a thousand more... something like that.


Hi Neal,

Here's a question I've been pondering upon:  Is the Pope the leader of the Church on earth?

The bible teaches that Jesus is the head of the church (Eph 5:23) and that Col 1:21 implies it as well.  I guess this wouldn't negate any of the Catholic teachings on the papacy, or am I wrong here?

To the second objection, they got the Bible through Tradition. Not only that, but Paul says to hold on tightly to the Traditions which the Apostles taught, whether written or oral.

So then would it be safe to say that Christians are to rely on Tradition, as in Oral Tradition (aka Sacred Tradition), and Written Tradition (aka the Bible)?

OK... to be honest I can't read any more of that tripe right now. Here is a link to Dave Armstrong's website. It is divided up into many parts, so it should be easy for you to look up the various topics.

Great...making ME do all the hardwork LOL :)

I only hope Matt Slick understands his own faith better than he understands mine.  If he wants to create some apostate boogeyman goddess-worshipping cult where he can have some Harlot from Revelations to make him feel good about himself, then so-be-it.  I wish he could differentiate between what we teach and believe and what he wants to believe we teach.  May God have mercy on us all... [/B]

After re-reading that comparison grid, I realize how much he doesn't really know about the Catholic church.  I think it's completely ridiculous.

But at the same time, he sticks to conservative Evangelical teachings, so that's at least encouraging to hear, and he believes in the gifts of the Spirit as well :)

-Jason
 
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Caedmon

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Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams
Also the site mentioned Catholics praying to Mary. This is wrong. Catholics ask the saints to pray for us in the same way we ask for fellow parishoners to pray for us.

Actually, I've heard some Catholics say that they do pray to Mary, but that they pray to her that she will pray for them. It's all rather confusing for those unfamiliar or new with Marian prayer.
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by humblejoe
Actually, I've heard some Catholics say that they do pray to Mary, but that they pray to her that she will pray for them. It's all rather confusing for those unfamiliar or new with Marian prayer.

Yea I keep hearing all these different terms, so ultimately all this is just miscommunication

-Jason
 
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isshinwhat

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Actually, I've heard some Catholics say that they do pray to Mary, but that they pray to her that she will pray for them. It's all rather confusing for those unfamiliar or new with Marian prayer.

Using the term the way we do, to pray to means only to ask someone for something. No worship is implied or intended. That is the sense we pray to saints. However, some people feel uncomfortable with that terminology because they think that the term "pray to" denotes worhip. Technically speaking, any time you ask anyone for anything you are praying to them. Take the play The Importance of Being Earnest for instance. Many times the actors and actress say, "Pray thee tell me." The sense that "pray" is used in that sentence is the way we use it when we say we pray to saints. But Hoonbaba is right. There is a big miscommunication there, so I , personally, try to use term like petition or ask, even though they mean the same thing.

So then would it be safe to say that Christians are to rely on Tradition, as in Oral Tradition (aka Sacred Tradition), and Written Tradition (aka the Bible)?

I would say yes, we are to rely on both under the guidance of the Church.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

The bible teaches that Jesus is the head of the church (Eph 5:23) and that Col 1:21 implies it as well. I guess this wouldn't negate any of the Catholic teachings on the papacy, or am I wrong here?

Christ is the head of the Church, but He appointed pastors to guide us, and the Pope is the older brother of the shepards. He told His Apostles that those who listened to them, listened to Him; and those who rejected them, rejected Him, too. No one believes tht the Pope is above Christ or has taken His place. No one could. But the ministry of the Apostles and their successors was to feed Christ's sheep and tend His lambs (John 21:15-17). That is their ministry, just as you will one day discern yours. Just as it won't we you alone who performs your ministry, they don't perform theirs alone, either. They have Christ who dwells within them, and His Spirit which comforts them and leads them into all truth. We aren't in this alone, Christ guides even the shepards he left to tend to us. The Church isn't some abstract heirarchy or denomination, it is us, gathered together as a family in true unity. We are all together the Catholic Church. A Bishop has a different ministry than I do, but we are all brothers, no more and no less a part of the Body of Christ. We all complement each other in the Body of Christ, and none of us does our part apart from the power of Christ, which is the Holy Ghost.

God Bless,

Neal

P.S. Shuffling through Dave Armstrong's website isn't hard work, it's fun!
 
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Hoonbaba

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P.S. Shuffling through Dave Armstrong's website isn't hard work, it's fun!

But that's EXACTLY the problem!!! I get so caught up with everything he has that I spend too much time on everything Catholic!  It's almost like an addiction!  I literally spend time at a library on campus printing out like everything Scott Hahn or everything Dave Armstrong!!! :)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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Originally posted by humblejoe
Actually, I've heard some Catholics say that they do pray to Mary, but that they pray to her that she will pray for them. It's all rather confusing for those unfamiliar or new with Marian prayer.

You say potato, I say potato. :scratch:

That really doesn't work online.
 
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